The Hubris Of Conflict Resolution Expertise

In episode 73 of the Conflict Skills Podcast, host Simon Goode discusses the challenges and complexities of being labeled a conflict resolution expert, sharing personal experiences of feeling overwhelmed by conflicts despite training when the situation was calling on resources that weren't available. 

Simon explores the unrealistic expectations we often place on ourselves and delves into how our brain's response to stress can complicate conflict management. Throughout the episode, Simon reflects on self-care strategies and the importance of balancing different aspects of self to effectively navigate and respond to conflict.

00:00 Overcoming Challenges Amidst Chaos

03:53 Conflict Confidence & Work-Life Realities

08:11 Driving Stress Impacts Email Writing

13:24 "Breaking Digital Dependency"

17:03 "Forgiving Audience Amid Tech Issues"

18:03 Five Aspects of Self-Care

23:10 Balancing Self for Conflict Resolution

25:30 Balancing Self for Present Awareness

28:09 Self-Calming Strategies

Transcript

0:11

Hello, Hello, and welcome back to the Conflict Skills Podcast. My name is Simon Goode, and I'm a professional mediator and trainer in conflict resolution skills. But I stand before you today as possibly the biggest hypocrite, at least in the, amount of hypocrisy related to conflict, at least in the people that I know. There's this bizarre thing about sending an email to people, and in my email signature, I often put something like conflict resolution specialist or something like that. Like, I've got postgraduate qualifications in mediation and dispute resolution. I have an MBA. I have a degree in psychology. Like, I think to some extent, I've got whatever you think that you need to become an expert, but I have to be honest with you. I certainly don't feel like one today. And there's been a few really bizarre little synchronicities where other people have also been talking to me about being challenged in their own conflict that they're dealing with at the moment too. For me, it's not just one conflict that I've been completely messing up and creating unnecessary drama. It's a number of them. And even while I'm in this moment, like, right now, I'm talking to you and I haven't had very much sleep for most of this week. I traveled down to Sydney and did a conference presentation, and I met with an old very good friend of mine, and previous business partner who's just one of my favorite people in the world. But we were both very tired, so that was an extra stressful kind of thing to do, and we haven't seen each other for a while, which adds another level of the energy drain, I suppose. Not saying that that's a bad thing, but it's just it is what it is. And then the next day, I got up and met with a client and had a lovely conversation with them and then drove home, which is a long trip back home where I live in Coffs Harbour. So it's just been a busy week, and it's very challenging. Not that I'm saying that I'm necessarily a high performer, but I do have very high expectations of myself. And I'm realizing as I get older that I still expect to be performing at the same, you know, quote, unquote high level regardless of what's happening in my life. Like, if I've had no sleep, I still expect to show up and kick goals. If my son and me have had a big fight before we got him to school in the morning or something, I still expect to be able to craft a really careful email when I'm sending to someone. And it's just so silly. Of course, when we're worked up, we're not thinking clearly. It's like I think I've talked about in the podcast episodes before. We're redlining our system, like putting the pedal to the metal in the car that you're driving. You certainly move quickly and in one direction, I guess. It's whichever way that you happen to be facing when you hit go. And you're moving quickly, but you're not steering. There's not a lot of control that's going on there. And I suppose then it's probably not surprising why we end up at places that are just bloody disasters. Like, how did we get into this place? I don't know if you've ever thought about that in any of the conflicts that you're dealing with. And it's particularly confronting, I think, when you're putting up your hand and saying that you're a so called expert at dealing with conflict. Helen was my friend who I met, for dinner the other day. By the way, Helen runs a a training organization called Ripple Learning. She's established it, you know, she's gonna hate me saying this, but she's done a lot of work to establish it and all of the profits from those workshops that she runs goes to, like, youth counseling and other very good philanthropic causes in a in a very direct kind of way as well. It's not like that kind of thing where you wonder where your money went, so to speak. So you can get good training as well as help people. So, if that sounds like a good fit for you, it's ripplelearning.com.au. So So Helen and me used to have a business together, which sort of was a bit of a variation of the two businesses that we run these days. The conflict consulting, coaching, mediation, a different mix of those different things that we're both focused on. We live in different areas these days, so it just wasn't going to work geographically anyway. But she was talking about also finding and I hope she doesn't mind me saying this, Helen, if you're listening, I'm sorry, but, you know, the ups and downs of her own levels of confidence in dealing with conflict. And she was talking about some challenges that she'd been involved in and, you know, not sharing any of the necessary details with me, but my goodness, it certainly resonated. Like, I'm thinking I've been through very similar situations, and isn't it tricky when you're managing this kind of thing? And we have this idea of work life balance, which implies a separation between our work self and our home self, but it still strikes me as bizarre that anybody even thinks that this is the way that our brains work. Like, we're physical creatures and you're carrying the one brain from your house to your work and from from your work back to your house. So why on earth would you expect the level of escalation, for example, to be completely separate in both of those different situations? It's beyond me, but of course, I'm the number one person still sitting there with the unrealistic expectations of how I'm gonna be able to bite my tongue or something like that. So I wanted to talk about this concept or idea or phenomenon or situation, whatever you describe it, where you thought that you were getting a little bit good at dealing with conflict, and then all of a sudden something goes wrong, it goes pear shaped, and it it is a hit to your confidence. I have to say, even for myself as somebody who's been dealing with conflict now for a long time, Like, I'm not naturally suited to it in this bizarre kind of way. I think the reason that people like my conflict resolution training, the the stuff that I do in my business, is not necessarily because I'm so good at telling them what to do. It's because I find a way of articulating what they already know and explaining it in a way that they can understand, which of course means that it can be applied and it makes a difference and they feel better. But But it's not just to feel better like happy clappy 10 out of 10 feedback form at the end of a good, you know, professional development workshop when there's a very charismatic person that's speaking. Like, I often check-in with people and they remember it. And they'll call me back and organize follow-up sessions and I'll see the staff, and they all really remember me. I just find it so incredibly rewarding. And although I'm very good at coaching and training people in how to deal with conflict, I think that the reason that my workshops are popular is because I experience conflict as being so bloody uncomfortable myself, and then I can say, my heart's racing. I'm sweaty. I'm shaking a little bit. Like, this is just a natural physiological response. It's effectively a reaction, I guess. It's the way that my brain is making sense of the situation that we're in. You know, any at any one moment, our brain's job is to manage the energy in our body, and it needs to guess how much energy we're going to need for what activity next. So So when we encounter something that our brain interprets as a perceived threat, it activates an increase in the amount of energy that it's burning. That's what's called the sympathetic nervous system, the ramping up of that escalation process, the fight or flight response that you've probably heard me talk about before. It's effectively the way the brain's way of balancing the body's energy budget. There's an incredibly good book by Lisa Feldman Barrett called How Emotions Are Made and Seven and a Half Lessons About the Brain, where she talks about her way of thinking about the brain and its connection to the mind, so to speak, and the physical body and all of this kind of thing. And I've approached self care and self resilience and self regulation and self confidence even in a very similar kind of way. Like, if you're wanting to get your confidence back on track, if you're feeling like you've had this hit to the confidence, so to speak, for my friend, it was a particular situation that she was managing that didn't go the way that she wanted it to. For me, at the moment, because I'm very tired, there's three little tiny niggling conflicts that I'm involved in that I just cannot let go of despite myself. It's so frustrating. Especially last night, I arrived home and I'd driven a very long trip and it was quite stressful. I was just wired and so I'm telling myself don't reply to the email, don't reply to the email. But sure enough, you know, I do end up writing a a reply. Thankfully, I don't think I did as much verbal diarrhea vomiting as I could have done, but my goodness, it wasn't far off it. And I feel very embarrassed about that the next day looking back on that and, yeah, hey, I don't know if this is a surprise to you, but writing an important email after you've just done a stressful thing like driving, if that's something that's stressful for you, it's not going to be a good idea. The same what would you call it? Like bucket of energy or the same section of our brain is taxed for executive function as self regulation. So for me, given the fact that I've had to really concentrate and like, I do find, driving sometimes a bit nerve wracking when there's people cutting you off and you're going really fast and, like, the accidents could happen pretty easily and it just strikes me that a lot of people are taking risks and not really they're not being careful enough to what I what my value is that they should be doing, if you know what I mean. So I'm not saying that they're doing something wrong, but, like, I don't tailgate people, I try not to cut people off just because I don't wanna cause an unnecessary accident. And when I'm in that kind of an environment for six hours and really concentrating myself as well, and even concentrating on stupid things like watching my drink roll across the chair, on the passenger chair, and wondering if I can still reach it, and trying to plan whether or not you're gonna reach across, and what the people behind you might think of you because they're gonna look in your rear view mirror, and then all of a sudden you you start thinking about whether or not this is illegal, and what level of reaching is appropriate, and wasn't it illegal now to touch your phone altogether, and goodness, what if you reach across and the phone's there and the camera picks you up and thinks that you see that? Like, it's all of this catastrophic kind of thinking that our brain gets into and it's not because of the situation that we're in. The drink bottle that's rolled across the passenger chair or the email that you need to write in itself isn't as much of a perceived threat. But because of the way that your brain interprets the situation that we're in, we factor in the cumulative effect of stress. So your brain is sitting here in your head and it's in a dark cave effectively, trying its best to guess what's going on in the outside world. And it has access to your senses, your sight, smell, touch, sound, taste, etcetera. It's got access internally to sensory organs like your stomach's churning or you feel sore in a particular bit of your body or posture are you in or something like that, and then your thinking patterns. And your brain interprets all of those seven different areas in its effort to make sense of the situation that you're in and make its best prediction about what you're gonna need to do next. And guess what? When you've been Like, let's think about your tribal ancestors. If they're in a situation where that needed to be desperately concentrating and this was a life and death decision with every little movement of their wrist, then that would be a situation that's pretty high stress. They're probably fighting somebody who's trying to kill them, trying to escape a predator that's hunting them, looking for food, and there's a lot at stake. If they miss it, they might not eat. Like, our brain interprets all of these combinations of factors, so to speak, in a way that might be construed as a potential threat historically. So these days, the challenge is that we're walking around with an outdated hardware system. There's nothing wrong with you if you become escalated when you're dealing with conflict. It's normal. Of course, you would thinking about your tribal ancestors. If there was conflict that was happening or you're embarrassed in front of everyone or being singled out, they're not small threats. Like, that might be that the tribe's gonna kick you out or they're not gonna share food with you or not look after you when you're sick or something like that. So you're not being silly. It's just a mismatch. The current, hardware that we're work walking around with this physiology, it's not suited to the modern working environment. So if you're feeling like you're getting sucked into responding to that email on a moment where you're thinking, it's just not worth it, mate. Like, walk away, walk away, walk away, walk away. Like, I'm telling myself this, but in the moment, it's just so challenging to do, isn't it? And I wonder if you found particular strategies or or tools that tend to work for you. For me, I I think there's probably a number of different elements that are helpful, but it's it's not like any of them solve the problem in themselves. Like, what I aim for in my strategy coming home from my next work trip, I'm reflecting on this and thinking about what I need to do differently to avoid all of this drama next time around, is to use structure. That was the first idea that comes to mind for me. I really like James Clear's book, Atomic Habits, and the way that he thinks about the process that we go through as we form healthy habits. He talks about this habit cycle and more or less what we want to do is choose behaviors that we wanna increase or decrease. Like I wanna decrease the amount of, unnecessary conflict emails that I'm responding to at 6PM at night and I wanna increase the amount of exercise I'm doing or walking my dog or making sure that I'm eating regularly or something like that. By the way, as I'm sitting here right now, I'm realizing that I haven't actually eaten and that's something that occurs to me that's probably also contributing to the way that I'm overreacting to some of these things that are going on. But I can't stop it. It's not like willpower itself is going to be the magic key for me to be able to improve. I can't just tell myself something like grow up. As childish as I feel like I am in these kind of moments like right now. I actually need a structure to use almost as a scaffold to get out of here. So I mean, don't sit in front of your computer, like, turn it off, move it into a different room, disconnect the Internet, go over to the modem and unplug it from the wall, ask your partner to hide your phone from you, drive around to your parents' house and drop your phone to their place and tell them that you'll be back to pick it up the next morning, Tell them that if you, for whatever reason, use your phone in the next twelve hours, that you'll pay them a thousand dollars as a penalty payment, so that there's some incentive for you to avoid it. Like, what we aim to do in the the habits that we want to build is to make them obvious, to make them appealing, to make them easy, etcetera. And structure is the way that we use that. It's not like willpower is gonna help me exercise, but if my gym bag is packed and I've told my partner that that's what I'm gonna do the first thing when I get home or, you know, there's there's a membership that I've already paid for or I've told my friend that I'm gonna meet them there, then it's much more likely that I'm actually gonna go to the gym. But when I hop out of the car and I've just done the long drive, my energy level is at a zero. Like, I honestly just wanna be here. I don't wanna go to the gym. But longer term, that's not going to be the most helpful strategy that I can use for looking after myself in the moment. I don't know if that makes sense, but for me, what I'm realizing is that the lack of confidence or the the mistakes that I'm making, they're not necessarily connected to a lack of capacity that I've got, and they're not necessarily connected to a lack of motivation. Like, it's not like I haven't tried hard. It's something to do with an imbalance between the level of demands that are put upon me and the level of resources that I have for dealing with it. So I mentioned that I was down at Sydney and doing a conference. It was actually a wonderful organization, Barnardos Australia, and hello to any of the staff that might have done some online stalking of me and they find me and now they're listening to this as the first podcast episode. It was lovely to meet you all, and I just really enjoyed hanging out briefly while I was down at the conference, and I hope the presentation was okay. I have to say I my slides messed up early on, like, a few minutes into it, and I had that happen about a month ago, and it was a really high stakes interview and my slice slides messed up. It was by far the biggest interview that I've ever done. I'm not sure if this person is going to publish it, which is why I don't wanna make public comments about who it was. But it's an incredible mentor and idol of mine. I've I've probably already mentioned who it was, but I'll let you know in a future episode once they publish any of it. But my slides messed up, and I had this enormous fight or flight response a month ago. And then yesterday, when my slides messed up, I noticed a very strong physical reaction. I started sweating very, it was obvious to me, and I suspect probably obvious to at least the people in the front of the room. I probably was shaking a little bit. I can remember holding a wireless microphone and I was shaking slightly. My voice probably went a little bit quivery. Thinking about me and how I normally act in these situations, I'm sure my body language was quite hunched over and a little bit powerless and looking a bit panicked, and I was probably talking really quickly, you know, if I if I'm honest about it. But that's all to do with the slides messing up. And then the reaction to the slides messing up is to do with do with the history. It's to do with that thing that happened a month ago and that, I suppose you'd call it, correlation that my brain is making between that past situation that was actually high stakes and this current situation this week, which is it's not high stakes. Like, these people are the salt of the earth, the best kind of people that you'll ever come across. If there's ever an audience that's gonna forgive you for having a tech problem, I guarantee you that it's them. So whatever the level of embarrassment and self consciousness that I might have been feeling, I am very confident that there was not going to be a negative consequence to me. Do you know what I mean? Even if I had to do the presentation without any slides, that would be perfectly fine. Could probably record it as a podcast and release it as a podcast episode or something like that instead. So structure for me is the first thing that I need to use to restore that balance or to make sure that the balance is in place. Now the way that I focus that structure is the way that I think about the self. And when I was doing the presentation with Bernardo, it's one of the, the frameworks that I talked about was it's, I suppose, a functional model of the way that I think about you and me and us, our self. Like, when we think about self confidence, self reliance, self efficacy, some people aren't clear about what the self is, but for me, I've I just don't find that it works. If you don't, at least have a functional definition, like at least a way of thinking about it so that you can do something about it. So for me, I've talked about previously, I think about the self with these five different aspects drawn from Buddhism, our thoughts, our feelings, our behavior, then also our physical body and our perception, what we're focused on. It's, not necessarily saying it's true or not, but it's true in the sense that it's like a functional definition that we can use for self care. Because each of those five different categories shows up differently when you're feeling stressed and when you're getting worked up. Like, in hindsight, those five different aspects were the warning signs that I should have paid attention to when I got back home yesterday evening. When I'm stressed, my thinking gets so quick and it's erratic and it jumps all over the shop and I tend to catastrophize and I I take things so personally, like, one of the unnecessary conflicts that I'm dealing with, it's a payment that I've made and then I decide to cancel the service and they're gonna keep the fee. And to me, this is just such an absurd thing to do, like, it's such a short sighted way of dealing with your clients. And, you know, I'm like, okay. Well, I guess I haven't had any benefit, but there seems to be some ethical, justification that they feel for keeping the money. I mean, technically, for me, it feels at least a lot more like theft, but I'm tired at the moment. So I can't trust my thinking. Like, I'm not fully understanding the nuances of this particular situation that I'm dealing with, so I really would be better off delaying the response. By the way, that's another thing that I'm thinking about as I'm talking about this. Our brains have a much easier time accepting something like not now. They have a very difficult time with no. So for me, I probably shouldn't have been telling myself, don't write the email. Don't write the email. Don't look at it. Just don't look at it, mate. It's not gonna be helpful. It would have been more helpful for me to say something like, this isn't the time to deal with it right now and then schedule a time in my diary this morning or or on Monday or whenever when I've got a bit of more of a clear head space going. And then I could have decided whether or not it was still worth responding to, and if so, choose the right words, etcetera. It just doesn't work. You just end up putting more fuel on the fire and adding more oxygen and, you know, it's just unnecessary drama that we always end up in. And I've got no one to blame, like, it's honestly myself. I should have just accepted that it was an expensive lesson to learn and just move on. It's it's just not the end of the world. And actually, it's been quite a useful lesson to learn about the effects of being too stingy and really, like, clamping down on people and trying to get every possible dollar out of them because we feel like we've, I don't know, been hard done by or we've done a certain amount of work on their behalf or something like that. Like, I could never imagine if a client said to me I'm not happy with if I've done a workshop and the client said I'm not happy with it, I can't imagine not giving them the money back. Maybe. But, like, it would just feel so disgusting. And, you know, whatever the short term amount of money is that you're you're getting or you're losing, it just it just interrupts your life. It distracts you from the family members that you're wanting to hang out with and the progress that you're wanting to make in your own business. But, yeah, guess what? When we're tired and when we're stressed and when we're flustered and under the pump, these are the times when we get sucked into this unnecessary kind of conflict, isn't it? But, yeah, I really wish that I'd said not now, scheduled some time in the diary for the next morning, and then probably looked at something with a different set of eyes. So for me now, what I'm taking away from having talked this through and shared a little bit of this with you is that probably I do need to do some self care right now. My thinking is fractured and it's a bit catastrophic and, you know, I'm feeling like there's a lot of things on my to do list. So the good news is that whichever of the symptoms is that you notice first, any of the interventions work to fix it. So if your thinking is speeding up and that's the thing that gives you a cue of, hold on here, I might be ramping up a bit. I probably need to calm myself down here. Like, you could do that through your thinking itself. You could challenge the assumptions that you're making, check that you're not catastrophizing or internalizing responsibility for something that's not your fault or that kind of thing. Or it could be doing something with your feelings like debriefing with someone who's a good listener, writing down your thoughts or journaling or something like that. You could use an intervention that's to do with your behavior, going for a walk, patting your dog, giving your loved one a cuddle, having a cup of tea, having a shower, something like that. Those ones also affect our physical body too. When we change our physical state, it changes how we're feeling, having something to eat. I really like just getting an ice packing and putting it on the side of my neck. I find that for whatever reason, that kind of snaps me out of whatever the the cloud was that my head was fully emerged in at the time. Do you submerge your head in a cloud if you shove it up into a cloud? Submerged. Your head ascends into a cloud that's very gray and it's full of unnecessary rehearsing the previous conflict that you've been in and unnecessary planning for the conflict that's coming up. And neither of those two pretty disastrous patterns in our behavior help us. It just leads to more of the craving and aversion and all of the things that tend to make us just feel so crap and yucky and, like, we're not good enough or we need to get out of this current situation that we're in or all of the rest of it. Whereas when we can keep those five aspects of our self balanced, including our perception, even focusing on things that are positive or focusing on a big picture perspective of the progress that you've made instead of just the last twelve months that was a particular disaster or something like that? Like, once we can get those five aspects of our self balanced, what seems to happen is that that craving and aversion which drives so many of the unhelpful, unhealthy reactions that we have to something like conflict, and instead it opens the door for us to be able to respond. And I don't know if we've all got a slightly different version of what that looks like and it's possible you're thinking about something different to me. I had a section when I was doing the the presentation at this last week and I said to them, what does your balanced self looks like? Thinking about your thoughts and your feelings and your behavior, etcetera. And one person said something like, I'm I'm not sure. I don't know what my balance self is, and it was a lovely moment of honesty and candidness, and it was really great comment to be made. And then she said, but I've noticed that it unlocks I think it was her artwork. It was a particular creative activity that it was just so obvious this was the kind of thing that filled her bucket as opposed to drained her. You know, if you've been hanging around the energy vampires, your self care habits are going to be similar. There'll be some activities that lead you feeling quite drained and others that leave you shining or leave you sparkling or make you feel like the world is a better place or there's a tiny reason to be optimistic and grateful in the midst of all of this challenge that you're dealing with at the moment. So she had a different idea to me. It was not sure plus creativity. For me, there's two areas that do become unlocked as well. It's creativity and consciousness. When I can keep those five aspects of myself, my thinking, my feeling, my behavior, my body, and what I'm focused on in balance, it opens the door for me to be present instead of rehearsing and reliving all of these painful experiences from yesterday or rehearsing and pre living the painful experiences that are coming tomorrow. It's it's not worth it, by the way. There's not much point rehearsing and using that energy, so to speak, even just the the logical rational energy that your brain uses. Save that for the moment when you're in the conversation. I think over rehearsing is something that tends to erode our confidence over time too, and we do tend to do that the more stressed that we get and the more escalated that we become as well. So that's, I suppose, a little bit of a meandering, wandering exploration of that topic of the hubris that comes from expertise. But I wonder what you think about that. I've focused today in this discussion thinking about conflict and communication and, you know, talked about some of the pretty painful mistakes that I'm inevitably bringing onto myself at the moment and what I'm planning to do at least to deal with that moving forward, not necessarily saying it's gonna be easy, but at least I've reached a point in my life where I'm clear on what a self care plan looks like if I'm not necessarily clear on exactly how to do it every single day consistently. I'm improving. And my hope is that hearing me and and explaining some of that, that that has also been useful for you. And maybe because I'm so acutely aware of some of the distress that all of this communication and conflict brings, maybe it normalizes a bit of the challenges that you're going through at the moment because you're probably not being silly. You you might you probably are being silly a little bit, but you're probably not just being silly. Okay? And what I mean by that is that the reaction that you're experiencing makes sense. It is connected to our evolution. It's kept us alive for thousands of years. And by the way, who are we to say that we're never gonna need this fight or flight reaction again? Obviously, when you're in a modern office environment, it's like, I'm being silly that I'm flushed when I'm standing up in front of people speaking, giving a presentation or something. Yeah. That's fine. That mate, that's silly. But if you've had dinner and someone's following you back to your car and you're worried that they're gonna mug you, it's really helpful that we've got the fight or flight response in those kind of situations, so I guess we have to be a little bit careful throwing out the baby with the bathwater with some of these initial reactions. Right? It's almost like we are programmed for dealing with the lowest common denominator. If there's a potential threat, then we get ready just in case. And if that's where you're sitting right now, if you're feeling quite escalated, well, you're not being silly. It's just the way that your brain gets ready just in case. So what might need to happen next is for you to send some signals for your brain that this isn't a situation involving a perceived threat, that this is in fact a calm and contained conversation, and you're sitting here talking to into a microphone recording a podcast for the conflict skills episode. Or maybe that's not you. Maybe you're in a different room doing something very different, but you're still not being silly. It's still your brain's making its best guess about what's going on in your situation and using the best tools at its disposal to keep itself safe in the best way that it can. And maybe a little bit like a child that's worked up and a bit rattled and, you know, they're not sure. They're feeling a bit scared. There's been a lot of challenges that I've had to deal with and a lot of burden that I've been carrying and, you know, if your kid was feeling like that, you would go in and give them a cuddle. So what's the equivalent of that look like for you? What does the self cuddle look like? And if you've got two options of going to the gym or having a beer, I mean, if you're gonna have the beer, have the beer, but maybe go to the gym first. Maybe think about the not now option as a way of exercising self control, if like me, that's something that you find particularly challenging. I'd love to hear your thoughts now that I'm doing the podcast in a slightly different way today in particular. I'd love to know if it works for you or if you prefer the normal way that I do the podcast episodes. If you've got feedback, an idea for a future episode, or a question about something that I've talked about, the best way to get in touch is the email podcast@SimonGoode.com. And that email address is podcast@sim0ng,doubleo,de.com. And in this podcast, I provide free resources and tools for dealing with conflicts. So if that sounds like the kind of thing that's useful for you, do please consider pressing subscribe. But, otherwise, thank you as always for your kind attention, and hopefully see you again in a future episode of the podcast. Bye for now.