Navigating Korean Work Culture: Lessons in Leadership, Conflict, and Community as Foreign Teachers

In this episode, Simon Goode interviews his friend and former colleague, Meng, about their experiences teaching English in South Korea. The discussion touches on navigating cultural differences, and adapting to Korean workplace hierarchy. They discuss the challenges of managing diverse teams, handling conflict between foreign teachers and local management, and the lasting impact of these experiences on their personal and professional lives. The conversation is filled with reflections on leadership, cross-cultural communication, and fond memories of building community abroad.

TIMESTAMPS: 

00:00 Navigating Cross-Cultural Work Challenges

03:54 Cultural Challenges and Perspectives

08:00 Building Trust Across Language Barriers

10:52 First Job Challenges

15:49 "Becoming a Teacher in Busan"

16:55 Balancing Leadership and Relationships

20:18 Teacher Management Tension Abroad

25:10 Teaching Across Cultural Boundaries

26:36 Teaching Older and Younger Students

31:58 "Guidance and Support at Work"

34:10 Workplace as a Classroom

37:19 Community Bonds in Busan Memories

Transcript

0:00

Hello and welcome back to the podcast. I'm your host, professional mediator, Simon Goode. I set up this podcast to provide free resources and tools for dealing with conflict. So if that sounds like the kind of thing that's useful for you, please consider pressing subscribe now. In the episode today, I've got a slightly different type of episode prepared for you. It's an interview that I set up with an old friend of mine, Mung. When I first got married nearly 17 years ago now, I and myself and my wife ended up going overseas. And we spent initially it was a year teaching English, and then we extended it to two years, and we stayed a little bit longer than that, actually. So we went to South Korea, this foreign country, to join this ragtag mix. Of English teachers from a lot of. Americans, but also Canadians and people from the UK and a whole bunch of different diverse backgrounds all needing to work together. So it wasn't just the cultural difference of dealing with Koreans and the Korean work culture. There was also the challenges of working with a supervisor or if you're in a leadership role, dealing with staff who have a completely different idea of what's fair and what's right and what's respectful communication and what's reasonable in terms of the amount of hours you're expected to spend outside of your paid hours at work and all of these kind of things. I think in hindsight, it was probably a little bit of a trial by fire in learning how to facilitate and manage the very different diverse perspectives. And it's interesting that I ended up being a mediator now, so many years later. So I wasn't a mediator back then. I just graduated from my psychology degree. So I was over there teaching English, and it was just such a lovely experience. I loved the kids, I loved the staff that we were working with, both the other expats that were there, as well as the Korean stuff. We're still friends with a number of the people that we met there, and I occasionally hear from old students who obviously look me up because they can remember me for whatever reason, and they send me a little update as to what they're doing, which I absolutely love. So it was a really special time for me and I think about it often. And so Mung, we weren't in contact for quite a few years, and he reached out a while ago, just saying. How are you traveling? And this kind of thing. And he'd been through some challenges in his work role, actually dealing with conflict. So we ended up having a few different chats about that and working through a few of those different struggles that he was dealing with at the time. Not super major things, but I think sometimes it's helpful just to have a sounding board or somebody to talk through the processing where you're at. I think it can almost help metabolize the experiences that we've had a little bit like we eat food and then it's metabolized and becomes energy for our body or something else, if it becomes a type of excretion. And I think our experiences are very similar. We have this input, and to some extent, it then becomes a part of us. So if you call that metabolizing or whatever, it's like we're absorbing it or processing it or dealing with it or something, and having a third person's perspective, someone that's outside of the situation. I just find it incredibly helpful myself. And I think that he did in this case as well. So we reconnected about that. And then he ended up telling me that he. He took over from me being the head instructor. After I left, there was a different person, Carissa, who moved into the role, temp or not temporarily. She was there for nearly a year after I left. So I was the supervisor. Then passed the baton on to Karissa, and then Mung ended up taking up the reins after that. And as he says in the interview, this was his first job and his first promotion. So I think he was quite chuffed about that fact that he ended up being made the head instructor, the team leader, effectively for his team. I'm sure that it probably was a sign of the fact that he was doing a very good job teaching, because I didn't end up having a lot of overlap. We ended up leaving. I'm not sure. I think it was like three months or two months or something after Meng started with us. He was a very good teacher, though. And so I thought that it would be really lovely to just chat about some of those different challenges that we dealt with in terms of navigating different cultures, to talk through some of the unique aspects of the Korean leadership hierarchy and how he managed to adapt to working with the Korean manager. And as you'll hear in the conversation, he took a very different path to me, and I was really interested as well to get an American's perspective about some of the differences that I was observing from the Aussie lens. And actually, that's something that I still appreciate moving forward when I chat with Meng, is that he's just got a very different way of thinking, and it's quite helpful for me. I have These little light bulb moments of insights often when we talk. So I hope that that's the case for you as well. So I'm going to press play now and I'll stop blabbing on and we'll begin with the conversation with Mung, and you'll kind of see I ask him a few different questions around cultural difference in particular, and then we go down a few different winding rabbit holes as. We go, which tends to be my. Way in this podcast. But, well, if you've ever seen a. Previous episode, you're probably used to it by now. So anyway, enjoy, and I hope that it's useful. Well, Mang, I thought maybe we could start at the start. Like when you arrived in Korea, what did you have in your head? Obviously, you've had a little bit of familiarity with Korea, potentially more than I did. So what did you think you were walking into and what did you first. Encounter in your first little period there in Korea? Of course, I had been studying Korean for two years in college by the year that I arrived, and. And then that summer before I started with you in the academy at Chungdam, I had actually been part of a summer scholarship program in Korea in Suwon, where we actually took Korean classes. We saw a lot of the country, so that gave me a starting base of reference for what the country and people were like. When I, you know, flew into Seoul in October for, for the training, you know, that was a very busy time. So that was mainly with like all the trainers at the headquarters. Then when I showed up in early November 2009, I think the biggest kind of difference was just the small city feel of Busan because it's not advertised like Seoul is. Things are a little more slower paced and it was just a little bit, you know, behind Seoul as far as development goes. So it was just sort of figuring out kind of the older buses, the subways, all of that. And over time, you know, a lot of these surprises came to be things that I enjoyed about living in Busan. Yeah, isn't it funny? The roughness of it was really romantic in a lot of ways. And we, we both traveled back to sort of spend time there as well and walked the old paths and reminisced, which has been so lovely. So what about the corporate culture, though? Like, you would have known something about the country and, you know, the language. And the dress and that kind of stuff, the subways and the buses. But how did you find working for a Korean company as opposed to your experience before that? Sure, it was, you know, the Korean Companies generally have a reputation, especially back in the day, of, like, longer hours and, you know, this hierarchy of, yes, very long hours. Right. And fortunately for. For how, you know, our work was structured as private academy tutors. Right. Our. Our days were essentially about 3 o' clock to 10 o', clock, which, you know, isn't necessarily short, but it was manageable because we had the mornings off. So, you know, during my first year there, a lot of my, you know, encounters with the Korean staff actually came through you. And that was a huge help as far as they had a way of doing things with, you know, how they wanted their classes run, the style in which all that. And I got their feedback from you, which really helped to kind of know what they wanted. And then over time, as they got to know me more, they would come seek me out and speak to me about certain things. There was a language barrier because some of the administrative staff, they were conversational. They were conversational in English, although not fully fluent. So in the beginning there was a little bit of kind of guessing about what exactly they meant. But over time, as we built trust, I think that, that, you know, was something that was, you know, very easy to get used to as far as they typically had the same requests of, you know, a certain student needed more time or the paperwork, how to get it done a certain way. So it was just about kind of listening and figuring out what they wanted, like, first by their words and then by what they wanted the end result to look like. Right. It sounds like you were much more willing to be compliant than I was in some of those things. I was probably a bit more stubborn, at least early on. Like, I was often, like, I was very frustrated at being micromanaged. And even when we. When you arrive in Korea, the company that we worked for, they give you a training course. Is it a week or. I can't remember if it was two weeks or one week or something similar. But it was all very, very, very structured. Sure. Do this and then this and then this. Here's the example script to say for the introduction. Here's the example script to say here. And I don't know if I just. Don'T tolerate being bored or what, but even in the training, in that first week, I can remember sort of butting heads with one of the trainers when they were telling me, this is the best way to do it. And I was saying, I'll show you, mate. You know what I mean? I think in Australia, we have a. Very flat kind of hierar, like we. Expect to be able to go have a beer with our boss or something. Well, in Korea, you definitely do expect to have a beer with your boss. Like, they'll take drinking once a week, basically. But you listen to your boss, like when the boss says, jump, the Korean stuff just basically say, how high? And I can remember that was something that was really jarring for me when I first arrived. I. I didn't like it. And then where we worked, they also have a CCTV system. I don't know if you'd come across that. Before we moved in, you moved into that role. So you watch live video recordings of the teachers running their actual classrooms. And again, for me, that was almost like a breach of privacy or something like that. Like, I felt really uncomfortable with it for a long time. But it sounds like that was something you didn't mind as much. Isn't it interesting the different things that rub us the wrong way or that we resonate kind of thing. It was my first job, right. So I was basically fresh out of college and so. So that was, you know, kind of what was introduced as normal. And it definitely took some getting used to. I mean, back to the whole first week of training, you know, I think that was really stressful. I remember, you know, there was one guy who was, you know, perfectly suited to do the job. And there was, you know, they have these series of little tests to, you know, these mock teaching presentations. Yeah, yeah, there were some tests and assessments, and it was stressful, you know, on the front end to sort of be like, fresh in country, to. To realize that, you know, we quote, unquote, had to pass, even though, I mean, they were very understanding and supportive. So. So after that week of just sort of like, you know, read this methodology, and then, you know, we're going to role play and do this and yes, yes, some people did. Some people just essentially outed themselves. So after a week of that, in Seoul, no less, coming there to Busan, it was like, pretty relaxed that first week, month, just sort of getting settled in, just because overall the. The vibe was. Was relaxed overall. Do you remember meeting Julia, our boss, for the first time? I do. She was, and probably still is a force of nature, right back to kind of the orders that she gave for how she wanted things done. You know, she personally was hard to say no to, which, you know, kind of that's, you know, that was part of her character. And openly critical. Oh, sure, absolutely. And it definitely took a lot of time where, I mean, generally, I recall, I didn't have a lot of contact with her. The first six months again, because she was kind of passing down commentary and observations to you and everything else. Then over time, she opened up a little bit. She spoke with me and we, we kind of found those rhythms to kind of rock and swing with, with. With her, you know, orders. Yeah, it's a very odd arrangement, isn't it, because you and I eventually became the. Hi. The head instructor. So we're kind of in charge of this motley crew of teachers that have. Been gathered from all of the corners of the earth, basically. Well, it's English speaking countries because they need to be English speaking teachers. But I had Irish people and Canadians and a few Australians and quite a few Americans. And it was the first time I realized just how much cultural difference there is between Americans. Like, you know, someone from Philadelphia versus someone from Texas versus someone from California or whatever, you know, Shannon that was there with us. So much variety more than Australia, I think, at the time at least. But yeah, I, I can still remember. A lot, like the feeling of walking into that school that we worked in and, you know, the smells and the differences down to the type of coffee. That you could make yourself before you started teaching your class. Do you remember that coffee that was just so full of sugar? I avoided it, but yes, I would. Avoid it as well, but it was very addictive and it's right outside your office and if you haven't had much sleep and you've got another class that you're about to start. Oh, yeah, it was something that I often couldn't avoid the temptation and then wouldn't sleep well as a result. So did you need to look after yourself in a particular way, like going through that assessment period or when you first started in the job or when you first moved into the supervisor kind of role? Like, did you find those different stages particularly stressful or were you taking it in your stride or what was it like? That whole span of time from when I first arrived to becoming the head instructor, it occurred over a span of a little bit over two years. So each stage was, you know, its own thing as far as, you know, arriving and being in training and then. And then being a normal teacher for about two years and then. And then head instructor. So I think each stage definitely had its own challenges with training. It was just sort of keeping cool and kind of understanding like what their assessments were really looking for because, you know, they all were meant to reinforce like the, the core, you know, values and ideas. And so. So, you know, it was just about keeping it cool. And I still have some memories of being with the other trainee teachers who would get distributed to other branches across the country. We'd be on a, on a rooftop, kind of taking a coffee break, sort of, you know, kind of talking about the, the upcoming test and sort of reassuring each other. Yeah. Now, when I got to Busan and started teaching at the SAHA branch, you know, you know, that one was more in depth and obviously longer. As far as, you know, me not having had any teaching experience to work with you and the team and, you know, the Cree management, even the students that kind of learn piece by piece what it is to be a teacher, hopefully a good teacher. And so that was, you know, for me. I still remember, like somewhere around the nine month mark, I walked into my classroom and I felt like a teacher after like nearly a year from all the hard work. So. So that was kind of the progression. And then after that it was about kind of working on the small things. And then of course, becoming head instructor was kind of being set in a different level. And what I mean by that was right there, there wasn't the exact same kind of camaraderie with the English teachers as before, because now you were looking over their shoulders and writing reports and in charge of a lot of that. So I think that was sort of learning how to balance and deal with people and their personalities and making sure you're kind of tracking on what you know, how they're feeling and what they're looking for. That's so true. It's a challenge, isn't it? Because you were at the same level before and you were direct colleagues and now you move into a supervisor kind of role. I think as I in most of my roles here in Australia, I've kind of accepted the fact that it's impossible to be friends with the people that you're their boss. Like, I want to be close and. I want to be connected and I. Want to support them and be empathetic and that kind of thing. But I can't be mates. Like, we're not at the same level to some extent, you know. Right. The challenge is in Korea, everyone's arriving from different countries and you're so isolated. So you've only got these group of teachers that you work with, really. I mean, there's other options if you've. Been there for a while. But yeah, I felt like of all of the different leadership roles I've been in, that one probably had the most blurred lines in terms of I was. Friends with all of you basically. And in hindsight, I think that probably added Some complications. I'd love to know maybe about your relationship then dealing with those other foreign teachers. I don't know if you're aware, but I ended up having to fire two people before you arrived and send them home. So I can still remember just so many early challenges for me in managing the teacher's performance. Like two of them we had to. Let go and they literally got to put on a flight home. Like, that's. It's very different firing someone from an overseas country versus if they're just going to live in the same house and still do all of the same things. It's just their job's going to be two kilometers away. Right. And now I also had a lot of trouble dealing with some of the American teachers who, that were very assertive. They were from. I think they were from California or somewhere like that, and very direct, assertive kind of personalities. And I would run a team meeting and I would say something like, all right, so Julia's asked us to change this. And I would always say something like, is that okay? Is that okay with you all? And one of them, Jeff, swore at. Me one day in front of everyone. He's like, simon, stop asking if, asking us if it's fucking okay. If the boss is telling us we have to do it, then we have to do it. Stop pretending that we have a choice. And it would have come across as so condescending and so patronizing in hindsight. But I had a lot of those pretty painful learning experiences along the way. Luckily, Jeff and his friend Swan weren't there for too long. They were really good teachers, but they were just, they didn't like being micromanaged. In a very similar way to me. And they certainly didn't like being patronized or being talked down to all that kind of thing. How did you go with the foreign teachers, like the other Americans and the teachers from other countries? It was some trial and error, you know, to, to your point. There, There definitely was, as you would expect, tension with, you know, the age old, you know, divide between like, management and, you know, the working teachers. So I, I definitely had my share of experiences with highly opinionated teachers from the States because, I mean, like, I think, you know, by that time there were, I mean, half the teachers I would say typically were, were from, were American or Canadian. So there were a few of those. And, and I remember one conversation where these, you know, this, there's this couple that was teaching there. They, they wanted like, their vacation planned out and paid a certain way. And I had to explain to them that the request they were making was not something that I could get done or to push for and that, you know, it really would have rubbed Julia and, you know, management the wrong way. Yeah. They don't like improving extra leave, do they? At all leave or annual leave? Of course. Yeah. And so it was just sort of explaining like the realities of, you know, what, what was inbounds and what was not going to be possible. Yeah, but you were thinking about that. As a data conversation, like these are the facts and you need to sort of educate them around what Julie is. Likely to go for or that kind of thing. As my mind works, yes. Yeah. And how did it wrap up then in the end? Were they accepting of it or. Well, I mean, they had to, they had to, it was the, the, the, the, the way they wanted their vacation done just wasn't going to happen. I think they, I think they wished that I would have kind of gone out for them and really raised a stink essentially with advocate on their behalf almost. Yeah. And gotten some kind of like, exception for, for just them and all that. And you know, those are not easy or, you know, far from, you know, far from it. And so they accepted it. They took their vacation begrudgingly, if that's a thing. And they actually finished out their year plus a few weeks. And overall, you know, I think it was fine. But delivering bad news in the moment wouldn't have felt good at all. I can just imagine. It's one of the challenges, I think for a lot of people when they first move into the team leader or. Manager or site supervisor type of roles. Is that like dilemma that you're in. Where you feel responsible for the decision, but you don't have the authority and the autonomy to make the decision. So you're always delivering bad news and then you cop the, you know, people shoot the messenger so you cop the reaction to it, even if it's just. Sadness, like you feel gross because you've disappointed them. I think it's one of the things in leadership that we don't often talk about, that feeling responsible but not having much influence over the situation. It's one of the things that puts people more at risk of burnout. I mean, that probably describes the entire Korean hierarchy that literally everyone is just meat in the sandwich because your boss tells you literally what to do and you don't have much decision making power. Yeah, I still struggle with that when I'm not able to approve things for staff. And even when I hire people to. Work in my own business, I still struggle with Being too accommodating, I think, too flexible and too generous. It's interesting, I think, even looking back, I think that was beginning to play out. Even in that career role. I was going into bat for the teachers. And in hindsight I wish that I'd. Probably taken more like your, your approach, which was, look, these are the facts. This is the reality, let's just be transparent about it. Whereas I would have probably been, let me see what I can do with Julia. Maybe she can make an exception. And I would have gone and tried to push Julia as much as I could and she would have gotten very grumpy and angry with me and it probably would have made things a lot worse and still ended up in the same outcome that you reached at the end of the day anyway. That's such a good example of, I think, being the meat in the sandwich and carrying the water for your boss to some extent when needed. How did you go with the Korean students? Did you notice? Obviously there's a lot of differences between us and Korean students, the same as Australian. But what stood out to you. How hard working they were. Right. The fact that, you know, by the time they reached us at 4 o' clock every afternoon, they, you know, they're coming from an eight hour school day and you know, they were going to be with us for three hours and then a lot of the time they had more after that, especially as they neared high school. Yeah. So, I mean, you know, the diligence definitely stood out compared to like a quote, unquote, average 8 hour school day in many other, you know, countries. And then once I got to know them and, you know, there was the kind of a rapport and communication established and they felt comfortable around. They became more children, like again of, you know, more, you know, more relatable. It wasn't just, oh, like, I'm from this country, they're from that country. But they had interests and hobbies and emotions that were universal to all people. And that was one of the rewarding things about teaching was to sort of be in that kind of friendly type teacher classroom setting and help them learn the topic, which was English. Yeah. And in that one you can just. Be 100% positive, can't you? It's not like you need to pull your punches or something with the kids. You can and be very friendly and have fun with them and joke around. And it's still by far the best part of the job for me is thinking of all of those lovely kids that we used to get to hang out with so often. Every now and then one of them writes me an email and they're now adults kind of thing. I just love hearing from them so much. I don't know if you've received any contact from old students and that kind of thing. Did you like working with younger students. Or the older students better? Oh, the older ones. Right. So the younger ones were just sweet, you know, 8, 9, 10 year old kids and, and you know, there, there was kind of the, you know, it was nice because, you know, it was, things moved, moved along smoothly with the older ones. I, I enjoyed actually like explaining grammar and then to a certain point some of these high school students were preparing for kind of like almost college entrance type exams where, where, where I could get more technical with, you know, kind of looking out for, for the test questions and understanding vocabulary, explaining background. And that's what I really enjoyed because they typically came in that later seven to ten o' clock stretch. So, you know, we always play, sometimes we get to play those videos on the CDs for, for. What was it like bridge level and. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So it was, it was good because, you know, I, you know, I kind of made it a little bit of a practice. I liked finding a two to five minute clip, so not all that long. It kind of really got the kids a little bit of rest, but they could also fixate on like a visual of essentially an English lesson and then afterwards lights back on and then we could talk about this town in Maine that we watched and you know, the ship going by and it just, it was a, it was a neat teaching tool. I hadn't thought about that, that one of the benefits of those videos is that it gives kids a rest. That's such a, that's so insightful and it would be so draining for the kids speaking in English. They're effectively, I think, translating from Korean to English every time they want to. Say something kind of thing. So it'd be very taxing. So I really like that. I'd never thought that the videos provide a bit of an opportunity just for. Sort of decompression or something. To some extent the spotlight's not on you. You're not being scrutinized in the same. Way as when a teacher's standing over the top of you kind of thing. I haven't used them. I do professional development training workshops these days quite often and one of the things I've wanted to do is start using video, like little snapshots of situations. And that kind of thing. Maybe I need to implement a Korean style CCTV videotaping, all of the things that I do so that I can go away and watch it together. I found with the Korean students, one of the things that I did struggle with early was like how to make them feel comfortable. Because the test environment in Korea, it is pass or fail and the kids. Didn'T mind if you said you've got 20 minutes to do the test, there's. 100 questions get started. They would all just put their heads. Down and start working. It was incredible. But when you asked them to, to. Risk being vulnerable in front of their. Colleagues, they really didn't like doing that. Like they didn't like speaking up if. You ask any questions, very rarely anybody. Would ask any questions kind of thing. I guess it's that like. Almost like. The cultural norm of conforming or something like that. Or maybe it's just living in the big city or something to do with their language and the hierarchy or something similar. Did you need to do anything to set the students at ease, so to speak Mum, like help them to relax or help them to de stress when they were feeling overwhelmed? Yeah, I think the, the age old teaching technique of letting some of the stronger, more vocal students speak out kind of, you know, it kind of, it absorbed their higher energy and it allowed the quieter students for whatever reason to not be at the forefront. And then it was sort of just maintaining that balance and then checking in on the entire class. Because also there are downsides with like letting a student not say anything for the entire class. So it was a push and pull, right? It was being gentle as much as possible and then getting just a tad bit of involvement and participation from everyone. Yeah, that's so true. And it probably broke the ice as well that they didn't have to risk being the first person speaking or something similar as long as those first students. Didn'T set the bar too high that they gave an amazing response and then everybody else was so nervous that they couldn't follow their act kind of thing. So it sounds like some similarities though with dealing with the Korean staff. It was just, it sounds like you took a very open ended kind of approach, trying to be genuine, genuinely curious and observing when you first arrived and kind of copying what me and the other teachers did early on and then probably at that eight or nine month mark, I guess, becoming more creative and. Sort of doing it in your own style and doing it in your own way type of thing. So it sounds like the approach that you took in the end was quite. Different to me and I would have been very different to the. Hi, Jordan before me as well, and then Lee before that. We're all just such very different personalities. Well, we've touched on some of your experiences dealing with the students and the boss and the Korean staff. Is there anything else that stood out to you about that experience at work, or were there any other examples of cultural difference outside of work that you needed to deal with? I think that one thing about kind of being at work was just the little bit that was lost in translation, you know, kind of. It really was bridged by the experienced staff. Right. You know, often. Oftentimes the head instructor like you, or maybe a more senior, you know, or one of the senior teachers who would sort of just show us the ropes, so to speak, of. I mean, you've mentioned you and the previous head instructors fought for some of our rights and, you know, space to stand on there. There was the head instructor after you and before me, Carissa, who also did a really good job of kind of continuing that and kind of maintaining the space and kind of making sure that there was some respect given to us so we could kind of operate in. In the ways that we were comfortable with. Yeah. So how do you look back on that time then, Mung? Like, is there lots of positive memories. Or how would you describe it overall? Is it the learning experience? Is the thing that stands out to you the most, or what do you think? It was my. It was great. It was my first job. It was my first promotion several year three and a half years in Busan, and as we've discussed, it was. It was a nice snapshot in time. Right. It's kind of that late 2000s, early 2000s where Korea hadn't been discovered as much as it is these days. It wasn't on the tourism radar. Yeah. Right. And. And so, you know, especially being in the city, too, it was a great experience from work to outside of work, where, you know, we were by the beach and, you know, very nice memories that I look back on fondly. Does it influence your work these days. Or the way that you deal with friends or family or anything? Like, has it changed you? Is there something that you took away that really resonates still to this day? Yes. And I think it's mainly because I was a teacher there for several years, the first part of my career where, you know, when I'm working with people in an office, I actually always think about, like, education as if I'm newer in a setting. What's the best way to quote, unquote, download into my brain What I need to learn to succeed at this job or vice versa. If I'm training someone, how can I break down this idea to teach someone else? Because I think after teaching and being a classroom, you sort of see every workspace as a bit of a classroom of either teaching some, you know, important skills, concepts, practices, or being on the. Receiving end of that, or you're facilitating in some way like influencing the conversation. Or directing it in the same way as you might call in the student kind of thing. So what advice would you give someone. Who'S considering going to Korea or a. Different country to teach English or somebody. Who'S already decided and they're preparing? What. What tips would you give? What guidance would you recommend? I would say look outside of the K Pop, which I know has been. A. Major reason for going to Korea to teach for, you know, since we were there really, because, you know, it was just getting kind of big with the kind of non Korean, you know, crowd. But I think, you know, K pop is fine and all. There was just so much that we saw like having dinner in these old temple style restaurants or the back alleys or these kind of traditional. Yeah. And sort of, kind of getting to see the, shall we call it, the real side of Korea? Yeah, that's such a good bit of advice. I wish that I'd acknowledged just how. Special those little places were because I. Sort of was always worried that people were judging me or criticizing me or I was doing the wrong thing or something. So if we went to a pub. I was usually nervous that you weren't meant to pay or this wasn't the place where foreigners. I don't know, there'd always be some little norm that I was breaking and. In hindsight it was probably some local. Little family that runs the pub and grandma's upstairs and mum's in the back. Looking after the kids. I just wish that I'd been friendly. And I think the thing that got in the way of it for me was just nerves. I was self conscious and worried about what other people were thinking of me. Or didn't want to upset people or something similar. So I wish that I'd been more in the moment. It's so true. I think in some of those examples that you've given and the experiences that. You'Ve described, it changes you. Like it really does alter your perspective. And it makes you think differently, it makes you feel differently and ultimately act differently, I guess. Well, is there anything else you wanted to share, Mung? Any other comments or thoughts or funny stories or anything? Else that you're left with after your experience there. It was just a wonderful time, and we've got plenty of stories that we've caught up on. And I think to your point, the one story that comes to mind is we were doing a team dinner at a braised chicken stew place down the street from where we worked. And I think it was you who said, oh, the. This is owned by one of our students, Mother, and this is how we found it and all that. And, you know, I think that that was a nice snapshot into the communal experience that we had in our tiny corner of Busan as far as how everything worked. And for all the differences that we had, we were connected and involved and included in that community. And again, I think that was one of the best parts of how we lived back then. And those relationships, they're so lovely and they're the thing that lasts. Interestingly, like, when you reconnect with people like you and I have done, it's just really nice, isn't it, that you're still a good fit in some ways. Something still resonates just because of that common background or the common experiences that you've been through, like soldiers returning from war or something. You know, you share trauma after your mates and blah, blah, blah. Well, Mung, thank you very much for speaking with me. I've really enjoyed talking with you, actually. Today, and I hope that other people listening enjoy it, too. I just wanted to mention, I don't. Know if you've got anything you wanted to promote Hmong or anything that you'd. Like listeners to consider about yourself. Nothing on my end. No worries. Well, thank you very much for meeting with me. What if we leave it there? Thank you.