Training Mediators: Skills, Challenges, and Building Resilience in Conflict Management

In this episode of the Conflict Skills Podcast, Simon Goode interviews Linda Kochanski, an experienced mediator and trainer, about her 33-year journey in mediation, her approach to training new mediators, and the importance of reflective practice and resilience in the field. They explore how mediation skills benefit professionals from diverse backgrounds, including HR and rehabilitation, and discuss the challenges and rewards of working with conflict, especially in family dispute resolution. Linda Kochanski also shares insights on mentorship, continuing professional development, and her commitment to helping others build lifelong conflict management skills.

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Linda coordinates several courses with the College of Law in different states around Australia. For information please visit: https://www.collaw.edu.au/ 

The book Linda mentions: Mediating with Families (5th edition) 

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 TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 "Mediation Skills as Life Tools"

03:44 Qualities of Effective Mediators

09:12 "Breaking Down Mediation Process"

12:03 Encouraging Growth Through Coaching

15:05 "Becoming a Reflective Practitioner"

16:17 "Mediator Challenges in Family Disputes"

20:15 "Prioritizing Growth and Mentorship"

23:43 "Importance of Verbalizing Thoughts"

27:49 "Learning and Growth Through Mediation"

29:28 "Mediation Skills for Life"

Transcript

0:00

Well, hello and welcome back to the Conflict Skills Podcast. I'm your host, professional mediator Simon Goode, and today I'm joined by another fellow mediator and an old friend of mine, Linda Kuchanski. Good morning, Linda, and thank you so much for joining me. Hi, Simon. Good to see you again. Terrific. Well, Linda, we originally connected, I think, quite a few years ago when I was doing some coaching around some mediation courses that you were managing and coordinating at the time. I'm not sure if that's still your. Area of focus, or you might have a few different bits and pieces that you've added to your toolkit since then. Or different areas of focus. For people who don't know you, could you give us a bit of an overview of your background and what you're focused on these days? Yeah, sure. I suppose I've been a mediator a very long time. I'm celebrating June this year, it'll be 33 years. So I got involved in mediation when it was sort of on the cusp of becoming something in Australia, right? Still getting mixed up with meditation back then. But so I suppose I've been lucky to see ride the wave or, you know, grow with it. So I've been a mediator. I've done, you know, relationship mediation is my sort of my, my love. I like working with relationships. Then I, since about 1996, I tripped into training and for all the range of mediations, conflict dispute resolution practitioners across the board. Yeah, I suppose that's my love. And I've been doing that constantly in a number of different areas. You know, straight mediation or Amdras or NEMAS for some people that might have been around and heard Amdras training, but also in the family dispute resolution field, just general conflict coaching, you know, for some people, not conflict coaching, but teaching people how to deal with conflict. So, I mean, still in that space. So, yeah. But not so much necessarily people wanting to become mediators, also people that are working as managers or in HR or something similar. In helping them to develop a similar set of skills? I'm always a great believer, Simon, that the general mediation skills that you and I have and the process, you don't have to be a mediator to see the benefits. And we get a lot of people who are coming from HR. I'm in a course at the moment where the bulk of them are from the rehabilitation sector. And so they're working, and I don't know how many will become accredited mediators, but They're all saying,"Wow, this is going to change the way we have a conversation. This is the way we can deal with people who have trouble getting back to work. We can, you know, put the worker with the, you know, company back together again." So it reinforces for me the importance of the skills, you know, their life skills. Like facilitating conversations, de-escalation, those kind of areas? Yeah, exactly. A couple of people have just commented this week, "Wow, that's going to—" just thinking about how we use our skills, our acknowledgement or reframing or summary, how that— we know that can move people, but unless you think about it, you probably don't realise it can. And so for a lot of the people, so that's why I'm finding the people coming to mediation come from all walks of life. It's a bit clichéd, isn't it? But it's true. They come from a lot of education, the teachers, HR, of course, have always been on the periphery. It sounds awful, but I am a lawyer in a previous life. The lawyers are outnumbered at the moment. You know, it's sort of— Is that right? Yeah. They used to say 60/40 lawyers, but it's sort of swinging the other way. Well, when I was involved, it was very similar to that, I would guess. Yeah, right. Yeah. So, well, I think that's a good thing. I mean, the legal need it, but that just proves it can be across the dynamic. So really a diverse range of backgrounds. Are there particular personality characteristics that you think make people good mediators? Okay. I don't know about good mediators to begin with, but I think everyone that's attracted to mediation initially are problem solvers. And we say that because they come from that kind of— I think the people that make the most effective, I won't say best effective mediators, are the ones that are able to put that problem solver hat aside, but use the skills to assist the parties to be the problem solvers. So I think the other thing that makes good mediators are good communicators. And I think the ones that communicate well, people that communicate well, I think it's a natural progression to go. We do have some people in previous training, there's always one or two that struggle with either communication because English may be their second or third language. And as I explained to them, don't worry, mediation is a new language for everybody. But there's also just people that are just introverts that find it difficult to deal with it. So I think being a good communicator or being a comfortable communicator is the core, and then we can layer that, you know, we can put things with that. So, and having the solution-focused mindset's helpful, but isn't that an interesting dynamic that you're talking about, that you almost need to suspend your impulse to solve the. Problem and come up with a solution and, you know, decide what the agreement. Should be as a mediator? Because it's not your job to do that. You're really facilitating the parties to come up with an agreement that works for them. Yeah, I have an analogy that I talk about us being mediators is giving a guiding hand, not shoving someone in the back to get to the agreement. Right. You know, because I mean, it is a pathway. And I mean, you know, for— and I also talk about that, you know, if you're a lawyer, the lawyers see the goal and they try to get the people down there. If you're from a counseling background, here's something of interest and go down the rabbit hole. And so we are unique. We walk a unique path that we say, take our hand. We're not going to push you there, but we've got to guide you. But if you want to go off the path, we'll let you, but we know where we need to get. So analogy there that you try to get people thinking and, you know, just a different mindset change to what they— yeah. I worked with a supervisor once that said, I'm directive about the process, but not about the outcomes. Like I'll put the boundaries in place. Like you're talking about the guide rails. But I won't necessarily decide the destination. Or the path and the steps that we're going to take, et cetera. Yeah. And that's the exciting thing, I think, as being a mediator is, you know, no two cases are ever the same, even though you go, oh, well, the same content, blah, blah, blah. It's a human nature of where they want to get and how they get. But I love your point about not pushing them to an agreement. I always talk about outcomes. That's the beauty of mediation too. The outcomes can be so varied. Somebody who hasn't been in the same room as their ex-partner or whatever for the last 2 years, that could be a conversation they needed to have. We're not necessarily going to get an agreement, but that's the ability to have that conversation I think makes mediation unique. Yeah. And I think that's a mindset change for a lot of people because they want agreement, they want solutions, they want— and that may not be necessarily what these parties need at this particular time. I even come across it in marketing. You don't talk about resolving conflict, really. It's managing conflict or navigating conflict or surviving conflict. Yeah. Or adapting. Or, you know, and I think, but for a lot of people, it's all about resolution. I want resolution. So I think that's the difference. I think that's also the other mindset change that has to happen. Yeah. So how do you train mediators then? What does that process look like? Well, I think I've always been any skills. It's all about discussion modeling and and trialling. And so the courses over the years have evolved like that, that, you know, we have 1, 2, 3 days depending on what kind of course you're running, theory. But the theory can't be just talk and chalk because, you know, as well as I do, Simon, mediation isn't a complicated process. And, you know, people sit there and they get bored and go, what is she talking about? 8 steps? What? Really? And it's— What was step 4 and a half? I can't remember. Yeah, that's right. What if I do that way? Yeah. Right. But so it's discussion to give them the framework, but then it's modelling, it's sort of showing. So over the year, over the last few years, I've, you know, doing a lot more recording of videos of the actual mediation or snippets. No offence to our colleagues in America, but a lot of the American stuff doesn't work for what we do in Australia. Okay. So I think the model, I think those, that kind of Video people are very visual now. Yes. Um, so then, then it's the practice, then it's, you know, throwing them in the deep end. And that's why under ANDRAS that the, the, um, requirement is 9 role plays of about 2, hour and a half to 2 hours length. Yeah. People look at you and glaze over and go, really? And they, you know, then they go, but why are we only doing 3 as a mediator and 6 as a role player? Mm-hmm. Because you learn so much sitting in the different chairs. So, you know, that part of it, to me, the role plays make it come alive. So when you're talking about modelling, Linda, you mean yourself or another experienced mediator actually running a pretend or maybe even a real mediation in some of the videos? I tend to, in our training courses, tear the mediation process apart. And so mediator's opening statement, do a party's opening statement. So it's a bit like a jigsaw puzzle that you've, but for people can watch, they can ask questions. Why did you do this? Yeah. Then I make sure it's supplemented in their materials by a recording, a video recording they can go and watch. Because sometimes when you watch a video recording, you have no knowledge. It goes, oh, that's nice. Yeah. Um, so it's sort of reinforcements, you know, 3 points of contact. Yeah. Uh, similar way for the training. And you'd be looking at it in a whole different way at the end of the course rewatching, thinking, oh, that's why Linda didn't ask this question. Exactly. Or That's why she was sort of. You know, running out of the room in a panic all of a sudden when the client was being difficult. And when you say practice and the people swapping chairs, you mean the people studying to become mediators actually play the part of a party in a conflict, right? And then one of the other students is there facilitating it. How do you find that? Initially terrifying for them. Like recent ones, you know, you always get the ones— I always ask the question, how many of you role-played before? And there's always a couple that never role-played. And so that whole expectation. Yeah. But once you get through the first day, people just seem to naturally embrace it because it's also, we don't do it like a fishbowl. We don't stick, you know, one and everybody watch, you know, because you do it as a, as a small group with yourself. Yeah. As a mediator, two, two of your colleagues are in the same boat and a coach because it's just a nice, nice little, it's a safe environment. And that's what we talk about. And they get more and more enjoying that. You know, some of them get really into it, and we joke about, you know, we don't give out Best Oscar awards for role-playing and all that, but they do— you know, you do learn a lot by sitting as a role player because you hear the questions, you hear the intervention, and then you know if you feel moved, your parties in real life will probably feel moved. So you feel it, don't you, as a role player? Yeah, you really do. It's experiential. You get into the role even if you're not trying to sometimes. Like, something will annoy you about what your ex-partner said, even though it's actually another student sitting across the room from you. They just sound like them, you know, but, and, and that's a be— and that's the beauty, I think. So I mean, as you would know, role plays are where I work at my number of organizations I, I train for. They're always asking me every couple of years, do you wanna upgrade, update your role plays? I go, I don't need to. Mm-hmm. Because even if they're the same content, it's the human being that brings a different approach, a different attitude. Yeah. And that's the beauty. It just shows that the same circumstances. It's the human being that will bring difference, and that's what you work with as a mediator. So, right, right. For those more nervous students, what if they make a mistake in the role play or something goes wrong? What would happen? Nothing. We talk about being kind to themselves. That's my— and we talk about being a safety net. Like, this is your opportunity to try, ask questions. That's why a part of— always a part of the, you know, I get I always tell the students to make sure when they're meeting with their coach to contract with their coach because their coach is there to assist them. So, you know, maybe not the first one, just finding your feet, but, you know, subsequent ones is about what do you wanna focus on and what did you feel wrong? Yeah. I'm also very conscious to tell them that there'll be like a pendulum swing in mediation, as you would realize, like a lot of the time when they first do their role play, they're still eager problem solvers. So they jump in when, you know, when parties are talking with each other, and that's what we like to encourage. They'll jump in. And so the coach will say, look, Fred, sit back. It's important that you let them talk. Yeah. Be a good student. The next day when they do their, they'll sit back and the coach then will say, Fred, I think you need to be in there. So what I explain to them is like a pendulum. They've gotta find their rhythm. Yeah. So be kind to themselves. You know, I jokingly say after the second day, so how many mediations have we all done now? And they all put up 2. I go, yep, you've done 2 mediations. A lot of people come down hard on themselves, like in a recent, you know, oh, I got the agenda wrong and I felt that. And I go, that's why I exactly said, so how many mediations have you done? Right. Yeah. I think people, I think a lot of people who come to mediation, as you know, from, you know, our professionals who have been there for years and there's ego and there's expectations that I. Can do this and they're competent at their role. They're high performers in the other areas. Yeah. More than competent, you know, reach the heights of whatever. Right. So coming to learn. And so I'm always conscious to say, you gotta learn a new process, new language. Um, you gotta take this hat off, whatever it is. And I said, you know, you've been wearing it for a few years now. So I think sometimes, with the greatest respect, it's a little bit of ego pride that they can't. And the people that can get over that do well. It's the people that struggle with that who I find struggle with the whole concept of putting that persona aside and becoming a mediator. Yeah, right. Well, of course, given that that's their experience in the other areas, is that. They probably are a very high performer and they probably do completely feel like they're standing on solid ground when they're running this meeting or doing this project. At work, and now all of a sudden it, it's very different. And I like that analogy you're talking about of putting on a different hat. It's not just learning the words, it's like it feels different to be a mediator as opposed to a team leader or a manager, or as a colleague dealing with your staff. It's different things will feel uncomfortable, and that you'll notice these different dilemmas of, do I smile when this person's talking, or might that look like I'm taking sides or something? Very challenging, isn't it? Like, and you don't really know what's going to be difficult for you until you've spent time sitting in the chair and trying it. Yeah, that's the other thing that I do in a lot of my training courses, both for family and Amdress, is learning to become what we know is called a reflective practitioner. You know, as a lawyer, my most big reflection was, did I make budget last week in one of my court cases? You know, we didn't learn what we brought to the table and I'm very big that as a mediator, even though we're facilitating and we're saying we're not involved, we— there's a lot that we cause impact, but there's a lot that causes impact on us. Particularly when I'm working in the FDR, the family dispute resolution sector, a lot of people drawn to that have had bad experiences or, you know, and not the greatest reason to become an FDRP, I can tell you. So what triggers them? So you've got to learn that because You know, somebody, you know, I don't like— she was wearing a red dress and I hate the color red. You know, that there's reasons why people can be triggered. And unless you're very reflective, you don't know, really. Yeah. Well, you're never going to 100% know it all. You'll always be experiencing more of a complex, nuanced reaction than you're aware of to some extent. And how come? It's probably many different reasons for all of the different experiences that I've been. Through in my life up until this point. Yeah, I'm still struck by when I've been like working with a mentorship kind of arrangement, and it's very new FDRPs. There is the technical aspects of learning what to do and did I mess up the agenda and stuff, but a lot of it is just what you're talking about. It's the distress of being a mediator with these clients. Like, if people don't know what you're talking about, a family dispute resolution is people going through divorce and separation. So it's not intact couples, it's with their ex-partner, often figuring out arrangements for the parents' parenting or for the property. And as a mediator going in to become part of this little system that's so turbulent, yeah, it's stressful. It's very stressful as a mediator at times. Do you find that yourself? And what guidance do you give new mediators? Yeah, I do warn them about that, that you're entering into a system and I do feel for the young ones that are working in organising as young mediators who are doing like 5 hours a day, 5 days a week. I mean, the stories we hear, as you would remember, they're not— you know, you don't get people that go, "Oh, yeah, we'll separate. Oh, we'll be amicable about it." We don't get that. It's more family violence, divorce, drug and alcohol use, mental health issues. The vulnerabilities that we are seeing now compared to what I saw even, you know, The vulnerabilities are still there, but they're escalating. You've got a lot of people now, because now we know people that are on the spectrum that are neurodivergent, how that can impact on the way they deal with each other. Acquired brain injury, you know, people have, you know, those kind of things, plus the awful family violence. I facetiously say that even though I've done all these, I still pray to the cancellation fairies that my mediators will cancel sometimes because you know it's not going to be an easy one. Yeah, I've said genuinely to clients, thank you very much, I hope we never. See each other again, because that means you haven't needed me, a mediator, to come back and fix anything. I've done that too. So, I mean, it's not what you mean, but it's what you mean. But, you know, and I think that's the thing that I don't think, you know, until you get into it, you don't realise the complexities. You know, whether you're just a— not just a mediator, but doing Amdress general, There's complexities in workplace ones. I think I have an awful saying that sometimes it's easier to leave your spouse than leave a job because of your identity. And so they can be very trauma-inducing. It's. Right through the family. But even the clean commercial ones can cause angst because reputation, breach of trust, monetary issues that all come. So we're dealing with people probably not at their best, let's put it that way. Absolutely. And that's the thing we need to think about, I think, as mediators. So, are there particular things new mediators can do then to develop a bit of resilience? You talked about the self-reflective sort of way of working of, I guess, pausing and trying to become aware of that build-up of impact on yourself. Are there other things people could try or do or suggestions you give? I'm a great believer in— I mean, they used to call it supervision, but I think mentorship or that, you know, and I say that to everyone that I train, this is not the end. This is just the beginning of your journey. And you need someone to walk alongside you. And that's why I encourage the students to, if they connect with a particular coach, is maybe reach out if they do supervision or mentoring. Yeah. I think, or, and networking, you know, that's, I think having colleagues who are in the same boat that's starting off. Yeah. So it's networking. I think it's, you know, and looking at your continuing professional development, which is a requirement, you know, that you have to do to— not just as a requirement. As a mediator accreditation, you mean you have to do ongoing training? Both, on both. But not just ticking the boxes? Yeah, yeah, not exactly. It's not just— so looking at your professional development, what do you really need? And that's part of one of the last questions I get them to do as part of their mediation assessment is, um, it's now changed. You have a written assessment as well as an oral simulation. My last question is, what do you need to do in the next couple of years? What are you going to concentrate on? But making them think and write it, I'm not, you know, I can't guarantee they go there, but at least to me that's reinforcement. So, you know, they might want to learn how to use their skills better. They might want to learn how to use the different model, you know, The days of working on Zoom, we're all doing it on Zoom, but those kind of things, I think that's always what do you really want to develop? And also finding a good mentor, someone that will walk alongside you or someone you phone call away. I was lucky I worked for an organisation and whilst I was the only lawyer among 150 counsellors and social workers at the time, the beauty was if I walked out of a mediation, there was someone I could talk to. And I think solo mediators— and that's why I reinforce to students, it's really important to have a colleague or a mentor to be there for you, particularly. Group of people you meet with, something like that. Yeah. I beg your pardon, what were you going to say, Linda? Particularly, no, you know, even now, if I've had a nasty mediation, I'll ring a colleague, you know, say, 'You got 10 minutes,' right? And I think that's— I think we can't stop doing that because otherwise we're not really continuing the evolution of being a good mediator. For you, Linda, what is it about that 10-minute phone call that's helpful, do you. Think? I'm a talker, as you've picked up already, but it's just to verbalise it, you know, to— and also then to be able to verbalise the questions. What could I have done differently? It may be enough to get affirming or, you know, my colleague could say, oh, Sounds like you did a job. I probably would've done that. I would. Uh-huh. Yeah. So it's, it's more that it's just to either affirm or to go, oh, now I know. Yes. Or, or, or gee, that's happened again. So getting patterns in my, in my career and things like that. Yeah. Right. So, you know, you can't underestimate just reaching out and talking about it because, you. Know, I completely agree. And it's not just, I need an answer, like, Linda, what should I say? Or, they've written me this email, should I write back? Like, there's the technical aspect of, I. Just want 10 minutes to ask someone something. But what you said about verbalizing it, it's true. When we choose the words to use to describe that situation, it's like it becomes finite or something. Whereas until then, if we're just sitting in our immediate reaction, it probably just. Feels uncomfortable or overwhelming or stressful, or. I feel guilty, or I'm worried, or whatever the thing is that that I'm sitting there with, but it's all very vague. It's all very experiential. Whereas that process of just talking about it with someone, that's helpful in itself. And then just being heard, like, listened to and understood, and someone saying,'Far. Out, that sounds really full-on,' sometimes it's just so helpful. Like, 'Ah, thank you. Like, it was full-on.' And then you can go on with your day, right? Isn't it interesting, the benefit that comes? It's not necessarily the tangible technical advice, Even though obviously that's at the surface. Level what you might think that you're needing. And that comes back to being a reflective practitioner for me, I think. I mean, I love your point. Yeah. If you don't verbalize it, for me, if I don't verbalize it, it just goes around and around in my head and becomes bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and maybe catastrophize it when it doesn't need to be. If I say it, then I've said it. And if it's still a catastrophe, great. But, you know, if it's not, it's because, you know, And, you know, you often, you'll do something or ask a question, you'll see a response and you go, oh, and instead of laboring on that, it's what, what was the outcome? How did they feel? You know, the, this was only a small piece of a big, yeah, sure. You messed that up. That's right. Exactly. And, you know, I keep saying they probably don't even give a hoot. They've gone on and then, you know, I'm the one going, oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. So I think, you know, and, but I don't think it's a bad thing. I think, you know, I always say if you feel like you've not got the nerves or you don't feel, if you're going to ring it in, as they say, that's when to get out of the game as being a mediator. Right. It doesn't work. Yeah. It doesn't work. You know, just saying, okay, I'll do my agenda now, do this. It doesn't work unless you are, you know, invested in the sense that you're there, that you're present. Yeah. It's partly why it's so draining to do it then. I think you have to actually be there present. You have to be switched on and listening. And then at the end of it you're like, I can't even feel like I can do another one. So as you're saying, those organisations with. The very high KPI requirements of FaceTime. Etc., with clients, yeah, it's challenging because. Not every mediation will affect you the same. You might have had a really tough. One or a really easy one, and that thought of another 2 hours of working with a client's not going to be the same on Monday versus Tuesday or something. Very challenging, isn't it, managing all of those ups and downs even in practice? And I mean, a lot of private mediators do all-day mediations, you know, start at And I never see the sense in that because I'm tired and your clients or the parties, you know, I really think after about 4 hours people either will go, I will say anything to get out of this room, or I'm taking my jacket off and I'm not leaving until I get— you know. So maybe it's by design, sit in there and don't get the food in. So I think, you know, we don't I think we don't consider a lot. You know, I mean, I think when you start off as a young mediator, it's not just what you're doing, it's when you do it, how you do it. I'm not a morning person, so I don't know if I've made sense. We're doing this in the morning, but, you know, seriously, I don't start my mediations until about 10 o'clock in the morning. I'm not firing, whereas I've got colleagues who are not good in the afternoon, so they start earlier. These are all the things that you don't think about or you don't, you. Know, You don't know, do you, until you've tried it. Yeah, it's so true. Well, Linda, I wonder, just then as a final question, how has teaching mediators and training mediators over the years affected you? How— what have you been left with? What have you noticed? All of that kind of thing. Well, I suppose I found, I think, my niche. I think I'm reasonably good at it. You're very good at it, I think. Thank you. Modestly, I got an Order of Australia for my tertiary education. No kidding. Yeah. 2024. So congratulations. Yeah. I mean, that's lovely for me, but I think it was lovely to see a reinforcement for our, our, our role, our field. My colleague Mika Brandon, she has an AM, Tom Stedolker. So a few of us, it was lovely to be recognized. Wow. And the other thing I think for me was that working out how to give back because learning so much from teaching is like how to give back. And that happened— I can plug a book here, can I? Yes, sure, please. Mica Brandon, who you may know, she wrote Mediating with Family, 4 editions, and then she asked me to write the 5th edition with her. And so I'm not a writer, I'm a talker, as we've said, but I think over all my training, the mediation, it was really good to sit down and articulate that. Yeah. Right. I think probably to answer your question very quickly, I think I've learned so much from teaching, not about, about myself, but also about where we're heading. You know, I think I learned so much from the students. I learned so much from the sector where we're heading. I think we're in a good space. I think, you know, and I think We are moving to a place where mediation hopefully is seen as not only a profession, but also worthy addition to have to your repertoire that, you know, everyone should do mediation at some point to add this to their skill level. So it's been a really, it's been generous to me and hope I've been able to give something back to it. I'm sure, Linda, there would be so many mediators walking around in all of the states of Australia, probably, let alone some overseas that are probably following the Linda Kuchanski method of managing those introductions or what to do when the parties are misbehaving or whatever else it might be. But at least, you know, if I— you know, if we've still got mediators, I'm at the moment, we've got under AMDRAS over 4,000 mediators registered around Australia. Yeah, okay, that's not a bad number. Well, I suppose so. I wonder, I sometimes wonder about what's classified as a mediator and what's not, and, you know, the community workers, etc. It's probably a lot higher that. Yeah, right. So yeah, I agree, there's still some people with shingles that we don't need. Anyway, the other, the other way was what I was thinking— people who are effectively mediators but they haven't done the registered thing as well. Yeah. Is there anything else that you wanted to mention or promote, Linda? The book's perfectly fine, or anything else? Look, I— nothing really promotion, but just to say, for those of you who are listening, or those of you who just, you know, look at conflict or don't dismiss mediation as being, oh, I have to be a mediator, I do that. As we said at the beginning of our conversation, these are lifelong skills. Yes. And, you know, going to a mediation course, you know, can really assist you in all sorts of areas of life, even personal. Yeah. So, you know, I'm pleased that mediation's no longer getting mixed up with meditation and medication, that we actually— actually, people are looking for it. So, Thank you, Simon, for the opportunity. A pleasure, Linda. Thank you very much. I very much appreciated you sharing all of your insight and wisdom there. Thank you.