Bringing Calm to Conflict: Using Mindfulness Techniques in Conflict Management

Would you like to feel more calm in the midst of conflict? In this episode of the Conflict Skills Podcast, host Simon Goode talks with mindfulness specialist and former mediator Charlotte Tharup about how mindfulness can support conflict resolution both in personal and workplace settings. Charlotte shares practical techniques for self-regulation during difficult conversations, emphasizing the importance of body awareness and kind curiosity towards uncomfortable emotions. We explore some of the neuroscience behind mindfulness and discuss strategies to cultivate calm, empathy, and constructive engagement amid conflict.

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CHARLOTTES WEBSITE: 

https://themindfulnessclinic.com.au/

You can download a variety of resources as well as sign up to the newsletter. 

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TIMESTAMPS: 

00:00 "Mindfulness in Conflict Resolution"

05:41 Journey into Conflict Resolution

06:52 "Mindfulness for Leadership and Conflict"

10:01 "Alternatives to Violence Through Calm"

14:02 Awakening Through Mindful Awareness

19:31 "Mindfulness Through Kind Curiosity"

21:33 Managing Emotions in Conflict

25:50 "Awareness and Emotional Dynamics"

28:51 "Body Leads, Mind Follows"

32:49 Rushing Disrupts Awareness and Empathy

36:42 "Thanks and Stay Connected"

37:33 "Thanks and Goodbye"

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INTRO REFLECTION: 

Every thought is an afterthought. 
 
 As a human, at any one moment we have more sensory data coming in than we can manage efficiently. As a result, our brain selects what to prioritise.
 
 Our perception acts as a filter, choosing which aspects of our incoming sensory data we become aware of. 
 
 Our brain effectively creates an internal model of our current outside world which we experience as 'reality'. 
 
 Before that awareness, our body reacts almost immediately to incoming sensory data. This reaction occurs before we become consciously aware (or think or feel anything). 
 
 Always retrospectively, our brain creates what seems to be a coherent 'story'. This includes thoughts and feelings, urges and whims, sensations and interpretations. 
 
 The brain (pre-frontal cortex) will literally 'lie' to itself to make sense of what is happening - it can only ever make a 'best guess' at predicting what is happening in our context and what we might need to do next.
 
 What an unusual concept to grapple with - our brain lying to itself.... 
 
 I suppose then, in a sense, so do we all. 
 
By comparison, when we engage with mindfulness, we turn our attention to the texture and nuance of our experience in the moment.

Transcript

0:01

Hello, welcome back to the Conflict Skills Podcast. I'm your host, professional mediator Simon Goode. I set up this podcast to provide free resources and tools for dealing with conflict. So if that sounds like the kind of thing that's useful for you, please consider pressing subscribe. In the episode today, I'm talking with a mindfulness specialist, Charlotte Tirup. She was a mediator and many moons ago she actually worked in a center that I joined after her. We didn't cross paths, but everybody within the team really spoke about her positively and with a lot of affection. And I have to say, I can see why after having the conversation with her that you'll hear today. I wanted to invite Charlotte onto the podcast because I thought that mindfulness presents so many different options for people who are in the middle of conflict, both for self-regulation to keep more calm during a difficult conversation, for example, but also afterwards when we're sitting there all turbulent and worked up from whatever the challenging experience is that we had to go through. So Charlotte explains a number of very helpful ways of thinking about thoughts and feelings and the relationship with our body, etc., as well as what we can do to effectively manage all of that. I wanted to just read to you briefly though, before I hit play on the, the conversation, a reflection that I wrote immediately after I spoke with Charlotte. So I, as I mentioned, I hadn't met her before, so we talked for about half an hour or so, and then we ended the conversation and my mind was really spinning in a very positive way about a lot of the different topics that we had discussed. How I conceptualized the mind and the relationship between thoughts and feelings, perception and the physical body, for example. Some elements I think were reinforced of what I already understood about some of those areas. And in other ways that I was prompted to think differently, I suppose. So when that happens, I often find it helpful to write. So I thought that I could read you out the reflection that I wrote after I spoke with Charlotte. So next you'll hear what I wrote, and then after that I'm going to hit play on the conversation. I very much hope that it resonates with you, whether you're dealing with similar situations that Charlotte and I talk about, or maybe there's something that we discuss that you can translate into the different context that you might be in. If it's useful, please consider leaving a like, a thumbs up, positive review. All of those things make a massive difference for tiny little podcasts like this. So thank you in advance if that's something that you're prepared to do. So this is the reflection that I wrote after I had spoken with Charlotte. Every thought is an afterthought. As a human, at any one moment, we have more sensory data coming in than we can manage efficiently. As a result, our brain selects what to prioritize. Our perception acts as a filter Choosing which aspects of our incoming sensory data we become aware of, our brain effectively creates an internal model of our current outside world. This is what we experience as reality. Before that awareness, our body reacts almost immediately to the incoming sensory data. This reaction occurs before we become consciously aware, or think, or feel anything. So always retrospectively, our brain creates what seems to be a coherent story. This includes thoughts and feelings, urges and whims, sensations, interpretations. The brain, the prefrontal cortex, will literally lie to itself to make sense of what is happening. We will make up facts. We will fill in the gaps. It can only ever make a best guess at predicting what is happening in our context and what we might need to do next as a result. What an unusual concept to grapple with—our brain lying to itself. I suppose then, in a sense, so do we all. By comparison, when we engage with mindfulness, we turn our attention to the texture and nuance of our experience in the moment. Enjoy the podcast, and thank you again so much for Charlotte for being so generous with her time and expertise. Well, hello and welcome back to the Conflict Skills Podcast. I'm your host, professional mediator Simon Good, and today I'm joined by Charlotte Torop, a mindfulness consultant and educator. Charlotte also has a background in mediation, which is where I encountered you originally, Charlotte, but I've been a subscriber to your newsletter now for quite a few years, and I really enjoy all of the different resources that you send out. I thought it would be helpful to discuss a bit of mindfulness, but particularly in relation to conflict, people dealing with conflict, or maybe people managing conflict. So first of all, thank you very much for joining me today. My absolute pleasure. Yeah, one of my favorite topics, this, I think, in conflict, in specifically in relation to mindfulness. It's so rich. I mean, that's where, you know, that's where most of our learning happens, isn't it? When we, when we get entwined in this way. Yes. So yeah, it's really rich for potential. Well, Charlotte, I'd love to know, maybe initially, just your work in FDR and mediation in general. And for people overseas, by the way, FDR is family dispute resolution, so mediating with people going through divorce and separation. And we're talking briefly about— it doesn't sound like you focus as much on mediation these days. I'd love to know, how did that journey through mediation then enter into the mindfulness space for you? Perhaps I start a little bit before that because I actually did, I was engaged with AVP, the Alternative to Violence program, which is a fantastic voluntary-based organization. That was kind of where I started looking at conflict back both in Australia and in London. So I was already working with this before I did further training in London on this. And I really, to be honest, I was mainly interested in it from a, you know, relationship and, um, and workplace place. And then, uh, the, the Family Law Act changed 2006, and of course all of a sudden there was this demand for, for family mediators. So that then became, you know, something that I did for some years. At the same time, I started my mindfulness journey, if you like. So of course mindfulness and that whole thing of the neuroscience wasn't really factored in into the process in the way that I think it should have been. Certainly not in popular psychology and common understandings. No, not at all. It was seen as quite airy-fairy, probably. Yeah, exactly. And in particular, you know, uh, 15, 20 years ago, or even 10 years ago. So I started integrating mindfulness into the sessions because it was very clear that really to start mediating with somebody where their prefrontal is not online, is irresponsible because they don't, they can't access empathy, they can't access the big picture or self-insight, etc. So I started integrating it there. I started running retreats for psychologists and then I'm on mindfulness and then more and more I started doing leadership work and it becomes very evident, you know, and many actually, both Deloitte and McKinsey have repeatedly defined poor conflict resolution skills as one of the biggest hurdles for leaders. So that means it's never stopped for me. I'm endlessly curious about how do we improve this ability when our whole system goes, "Ooh, I want to get it, I want to get away from it. I want to act it away, think it away, or love it away." How do we not do our reactive pattern and come into it with that kind curiosity of what is arising? Right. So I suppose it would have been yourself as the mediator practicing mindfulness and sort of giving a little bit of support just by co-regulating everybody's nervous systems. But did you do specific things like at the beginning of the session, or would you talk to them about how to prepare, or what did you find helpful? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, first of all, I used the 5 conflict resolution practices of the, of the Quakers, of the AVP, which is respect for self, care for others, work together to find a solution, think before reacting, and expect the best. Okay. And so they would be my check-in. So we'd have pre-mediation and say, can you hold the situation in that? And if you can't, you're simply not mediation ready. If you, with every cell in your body, hate the other, you can't mediate. If you don't have any goodwill to say, I want to sort this out, if you don't have any ability to downregulate yourself when you get very angry, then actually, you know, we're not ready. We need to do some work beforehand. So I always use those principles as kind of a checkpoint, if you like. And then people respond, oh, really well, really well. It's really— everybody sort of loves, you know, something that's fairly clear, uh, I think, uh, to go, yeah, I can see that I can't hold the other one with any care at all. Well, you're not ready because empathy isn't online, and without that, when it comes to your children, we cannot proceed, right? We need to have something that that, um, make some changes. So true. The empathetic, you know, circuits, so to speak, that section of the brain, but also logic and language and other elements that we also really need when we're dealing with disputes and conflict in those kind of areas. Yeah. Was that AVP program dealing with the, like, you know, not to necessarily use this language, but the perpetrators, the people who'd use violence, or was it dealing with the people who had experienced violence, or All of it. It really is about, you know, an alternative to violence way. And violence being very broadly understood as in power over. How do we, which is then beautiful in relation to transaction analysis. How do we both sit as the adult and navigate this with kindness and foresight? So I suppose the little, you asked little ways that I looked at downregulating was, for instance, greeting people with kindness and reassurance, and then walking slowly. That's not my natural walk. Walking slowly in order for them to sort of settle. And then once we'd sit, we'd do our 5 magic breaths, which again, you know, longer out breath and in breath, making sure the prefrontal cortex was online and really talking to this. Can you sense that you are perhaps— that you are a little excited and you're on edge? But can you sense also that you can find calm? I would speak slowly. I'd make sure that my— the intonation of sentences is deep on the finishing of the sentence. Those things that we know tap into your parasympathetic and stimulate that through your vagus nerve. So definitely using some of these techniques. And very explicitly, from the sounds of it, I've actually used similar approaches and I find that clients don't mind it at all. I was nervous the first time I thought I'm going to ask my clients to breathe. It just seems silly. It like they're gonna think that I'm silly, but actually they're like, of course this is bloody stressful, like this is really overwhelming coming in for this meeting today. Um, to be frank, I actually got some benefit out of it myself because I also got a chance to have 5 deep breaths, which was helpful as well. Absolutely. But they didn't mind. It didn't seem like there was much resistance. It was, I think, something that I had maybe been, um, making an assumption about, I guess. And I wonder if you run into much resistance in that area, like people are nervous about making that explicit, like let's take a few deep breaths to start a team meeting, for example. How do you find people respond? No, I don't find that at all. I, I think there was some people who found it silly. It's 20 years ago and who probably sit there and roll their eyes at me, but it doesn't really matter because I would still be calmer and the other one would be calmer. So, you know, that's okay, that's their prerogative. I usually inform with neuroscience and say to our It's my responsibility as a mediator to ensure that you are in the best state to actually— What a nice way to put it. Yeah. Yeah. And so, no, I didn't actually. Well, they didn't dare, Simon. I don't know. Maybe that's it as well. I suppose we don't know at the end of the day. But you do notice that they're calm after they do it. I'm certainly sure of that one. And what a lovely way you've done of summarising that de-escalation approach of the calm, slow tone of voice and moving a little bit slower and minimizing movements and all of that. That's like a gentle dance almost as you're bringing them in, as opposed to this abrupt, let's wind things up and increase tension, etc. So some of those aspects of what you're talking about there, I guess, would be in what I would consider to be the category of mindfulness, Charlotte. But do you define mindfulness in a particular way? Is there a particular definition, or how do you think about it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, there are of course many, many definitions, and many of them are kind of pointing to an experience that is a little bit— it's hard to define because it is many things. But the first thing I'd say is that it is a practice. So it's not something you read in a book. It's an activity, if you like. The activity is about becoming aware. And awareness then observes if you like, the reactive self, the survival self, that, that is 95% of our functioning. And it does that through first noticing where's the body at, because the body comes first. Everything arises here first. Where is it at emotionally, the system? And what are the thoughts that are being pumped out in relation to this? So we do this practice in order for us to become awake, to wake up, if you like. I mean, Buddha means awake. And of course, Buddhism sits Uh, sorry, mindfulness sits within Buddhism, waking up from our slumber of being on autopilot, of being reactive. So that's the practice. A side effect is then that as soon as we pay attention to our senses, we start to cruise in a frequency that is to the drum of nature itself, and that downregulates us. We get out as soon as, you know, if I say to you now, pinch under your arm here, for instance, you pinch. And when all your attention is in the pain of the pinching or the sensation of the arms, your mind is not on accelerating anxiety. It actually starts to be a very, you know, simple, narrow focus. And that allows— and being with what is. What is happening now, the present moment. Yeah. And there's really beautiful research around when our attention is aligned with what is, it calms the system down because this is a predicting machine. It's always predicting. And when the prediction is correct, it brings relief. And that's just one of them. There are many reasons why this works, but it's very exciting. I mean, it's, you know, without mindfulness, we can of course be aware, but this is a practice that helps us and guides us to how How do we do it? What do we do? And that's, I think, very appealing, right? Absolutely. Would you say then that that awareness is something that you achieve or it's something that you aspire to, but we're not actually going to be fully aware? Do you think about that in a particular way? Never be done, right? Never be done. And we're designed not to be done, if you like, right? We're designed to have 95% of our reactive being reactive. But we can, through our attention, start to change through experience. The texture of the reactive. And that's really, that's the exciting piece. Will we ever be completely done? No, because we, as Ram Dass said, the amazing spiritual teacher, you know, he'd spent all his life on the spiritual journey. And then when he was having a stroke, all he did, all he wanted to do was live. And all the spiritual thing went poof, right? And so we are, we are, you know, human beings. Right? We are human beings, and that will always override, if you like, the delicate texture of the oneness, if you like. What an interesting way of thinking about it. And so we look for that texture, we look to sense it, explore it. And I think inherently that distress does lower. I totally agree. It's interesting, my son is 9 years old, and he was talking to me about this yesterday. He had something that was really hurting on one leg, and he said, Dad, when I pinch one finger, it stops hurting. And I'm like, yeah, mate, well, that's basically how it works. Like, we've got too much sensory information coming in, our brain has to prioritize what to pay attention to. What an interesting way of thinking about it then, Charlotte. So would you consider then it a practice that you would do kind of constantly through the day, during a team meeting, during your commute, more or less sort of as often as possible? Absolutely. I mean, we have— we talk about a formal practice and an informal practice, so It's very hard to remember to do the informal if we don't do the formal. So we do the formal practice, which is a minimum of like, say, you know, 10-minute sitting, and there's all different exercises. Again, they're programmed. The Buddha was a list person, so we know what to do. And neuroscience backs this practice up, which is exciting but not surprising because he was, you know, a great observer of the mind. And so science is right. So, so the key thing is we have the formal and then we have the informal and the informal is life. So, you know, you don't have to get a coloring-in book or anything like that. You can just, you know, observe your, you know, in a dialogue like we are having, where's the body at? Am I anxious? Where's the system at? I'm chopping carrots and can be curious about, you know, I can either be mindful and be one with the experience like we talked about before, one with the breath. Or I can just notice what comes up for me in relation to cutting the carrots. Do I have a sense of urgency? I want to get them done quickly, right? Can I do them and be aligned with them? Can I get them? Does the mind get distracted? What's the relationship with cutting the carrots, if you like? That's the mindfulness piece. And there's no right or wrong because that is just a result of how your reactive has been formed. And that's not your fault. That's not your doing, if you like, right? That happens ongoing according to our experiences. So there's nothing to judge. There's just an experience to be observed. What if someone notices that an unpleasant emotion emerges? For example, like they worry about something that happened yesterday or today at work in a difficult meeting, or tomorrow that's coming? How would they deal with that? So in our culture, we sort of, we place the human being as the center of the universe and it's about getting things done. In mindfulness, we put a complete break in this and we go, okay, observe that. As soon as you start to go, I want that to go away, what happens is it persists, right? So we deal with it with kind curiosity. We go, oh, there's worry about that. And then rather than perpetuate the cognitive cycle of it, we go, let me notice it in the body. Where is it in the body? As soon as you place, you acknowledge that something's going on, but you step out of the narrative and into the body response of it. And you give that, then you allow it to be there while you hold it in kind curiosity. So you notice, oh, the chest is a bit tight with this, or, oh, the solar plexus is really sort of like a little knot, you know, okay, dear body. Okay, it's okay. Do we need to move a little bit? Do we need to just breathe and notice the breath breathing in and out of the sensation? But we are with it without an agenda of getting rid of it. Yeah, right. Very important. Not fixing it. Not fixing it because it's a gift. It's always a gift. Oh, interesting that, you know, that's, I think, one of the big things about conflict too. You know, as soon as there's conflict, we tend to think, Freaking problem is the other, right? And I want those jerks. Exactly. And I think what the first thing in, and I'm sure you agree, that first step of coaching anyone going through conflict is to go, what's arising for you? Because that you can do something about. What are your attribution errors that you're making along the way? Oh, they're just, you know, they're such an inconsiderate bastard. Okay. So what behavior, you know, happened that made you conclude that, and what does that remind you of, etc. So it becomes an opportunity for growth. What emotions come up for you when you see their name come up on your SMS on your phone, or that kind of thing? And then again, it probably wouldn't be about fixing it, it's just managing it. It's doing what you need to do in the short term to, like you said, move or have something to eat or go for a walk or something. And I can imagine that would then have such a positive reciprocal benefit then on the conflict. If you're just a little bit more calm every time you send a message to your ex-partner, you can imagine you're less likely to overreact, less likely to, you know, not be able to take the bigger, the more mature path along the way. All of those kind of elements. Have you worked specifically with people in workplace conflict situations, Charlotte? Are there particular kind of practices that they could consider if someone's feeling like— a lot of the clients that I meet for mediation, they're quite overwhelmed, to be frank. Their conflict is really consuming them. They're thinking about it at night at 2 AM. A lot of rumination and intrusive thoughts. Are there particular strategies that they might be able to begin with if they thought that mindfulness could be something that's helpful for them? Yeah. And I think the first thing is, and particularly if it's a leader, to go, okay, let's get the first big picture established first. How, how would you like to show up when you reflect on this in 5 years' time? How would you like to show up? Okay. So then we know where we, where we have to get to. And I use transaction analysis. All the time because I think it is the most simple, amazing process of just saying, parent, adult, child. We've got to be an adult. We can't do, you know, the child is in the petulant child or the compliant child. We can't do the controlling or abusive parent. We need to be a healthy adult. And there's some attitudes that, that, um, that I over time have realized are an integral part of the adult, and that is kindness, curious, well, caring, curiosity, clarity, and collaboration. And I come from a neuroscientific framework, if you like. And so, you know, that's, and that's both turned towards the self and others. So if you were to see this situation with kind curiosity, what might you see? What do you need in order to move on? What needs to be recognized within you and how do you best do that yourself? Or do you need to— does something need to— do you need to take action? You know, where are we going to go with this, if you like, right? So, so they would be my first thing. And also the ongoing potentially trauma work if somebody's really triggered, you know, we're working with that trauma in the body so that they're no longer captured by that, because we revert back to where the trauma began, which might be a 5-year-old, which is not helpful for conflict, right? And it might be something coming up several times a day, so they might need to self-regulate quite strategically, I guess. Yeah. And then, you know, if we're going through an acute situation like that, which is a bit like going through a divorce, you know, how do you make sure that the foundation of your well-being is taken very, very seriously? I don't like the word self-care because I think it is a responsibility of this system of taking care of the system. So it means that you make sure that you walk, that you exercise, make sure you eat well, make sure you reduce toxins, and make sure you get enough sleep and rest, right? So that commitment is really essential because as soon as you haven't slept, as soon as, you know, you haven't exercised, you are so much more prone to the conflict running amok with you. Yes, absolutely. Could managers then suggest that their staff try mindfulness? What do you think about that as a potential option? Yeah, I mean, that's, that the, it's, it's insanely exciting when they do. I have one HR professional in an organization where they have all— they've all done, uh, either, you know, face-to-face or they have done my online program, which is, uh, Mindfulness at Work. And she says, as soon as— and they also do mindfulness training in the workplace every day, and she says whenever somebody comes and is really disgruntled or whatever, she said, have you been doing a mindfulness practice? Inevitably they haven't. And she said, well, go back and do that and then come back in 2 weeks. Has it changed things? So it becomes the prescription. Absolutely. Absolutely. There's no bad side effects, right? Well, there isn't, and there's no cost, and it doesn't take a particularly large amount of training, and there's no equipment. You can do it during a difficult conversation. It's difficult sometimes to just pause a conversation and go for a lap around the building, even though going for a walk can be helpful. But yeah, just that becoming aware of what's going on for you. I really like the way that you put that, and I love a lot of the ways that you You think about that, the parent-adult-child dynamics and the catastrophe really that can come out when someone's into the parent mode or into the child mode and they shouldn't be. I think, Charlotte, you used a word before when you were talking about the thoughts and emotions. I think you were describing we begin with the physical body. That's sort of, you know, the machine that's running it. And then you said the thoughts are the things that are pumped out. And that actually matches my understanding. It's like depending on the level of escalation that we've got, there'll be different sections of our brain active. So we can't control fully what thoughts will emerge. They do emerge in at least a very strong correlation with what's going on with our physiology. Do you think then we have any control over our thoughts or influence, or how do you think about that? And, and would you mind if I ask, do you have a particular way of defining thoughts as opposed to feelings and emotions? Right. I'm sorry, they're probably too ambiguous and deep questions. Oh no, I think they're great questions. Um, I think it becomes very clear when you practice a lot that the context of our experience is the body. That's the first, that's a primary context of our experience, right? So, so therefore that's the first responsibility, naturally. So, you know, if I'm stressed— naturally, but I don't think that would have occurred to a lot of people. I find that really helpful. Thank you. Okay. It's like the body is this intermediary and our brain's in this dark skull. It doesn't have access to the outside world. So you're right, everything that happens comes in through the body. Exactly. And, you know, the language of the reactive is the language of the body. So, you know, if we prompted you to remember an unpleasant experience that happened in your early childhood, immediately the body would go, well, you'd notice it somewhere in the body, right? Yes. And your heart rate would increase, your blood pressure, blood sugar, all of those elements. Yeah. Now think of it as that was a conscious stimuli through words. The vast majority of the stimuli are through the temperature, the time of the day, somebody reminds us of somebody, a sound, etc., etc. We are navigating this loaded space, if you like, of our own associations, right? We have an experience early in life, it's unpleasant, the system stores it in don't repeat that, and it's loaded with negative associations. Now, it might be the sound, it might be the summer day, it might be the the smell, it could be all of those things. And so we walk around trigger-happy, if you like, for the sake of surviving. Yeah. But that we don't repeat this. So that's probably the first thing to say. And also we know that the body reacts before conscious thought. So it's 0.56 of a second ahead of conscious thought, which means that the body's out front all the time. And then as a result of the body and the feeling tone, out then arises feelings in relation to this. Now from this, these two elements, this is kind of the foundation of Buddhism, that it starts with the body, then comes feelings. Thinking goes, oh, let me try to conclude what's happening. And that's— so thinking is literally always an afterthought. So one of the things that we do in mindfulness is that close that a little bit, shift the attention to being so that the misery, if you like, is processed through the body rather than give it multi-growth through a narrative that makes it 10 times worse. Knowing that it's just a construction. There's a beautiful statement by the Buddha, one of my favorite, that goes, all descriptions of reality are only temporary hypotheses. Right? Right. So hold everything, all thoughts really lightly because next minute is different. It's just a fleeting moment, right? Not solid. It doesn't define you, doesn't define the other. It's just an arising in the moment. So don't take your thoughts too seriously. They are just actually a joke. It's, you know, The fact that we can think is really useful, right? We can design things and ideas are fabulous and we can exchange. So in that way it is. But when they come to those that where they come with a tightening of the body or the body is tight and they're pumped out of that space, be super alert to actually, I usually sort of say it's like you're walking around with 6 wild dogs, right? And they, and the mind wants to run amok with you to conclude things, right? To sort this. Well, hold them back, hold them back, come into the body, look at, you know, dear body, and settle this before you allow the mind conclude or think about the situation. Then you're more likely to be able to come from the adult, right? And the noticing of all those urges and the whims and what you want to say and what you have trouble letting go of, all of that. Stuff as well. Yeah, hold it lightly. It's just blah blah blah, right? But of course, what happens in your— look, for instance, you know, around mattering, some often one of the key things that we get stuck on in conflict is because we feel that we have been overlooked, we have— we haven't mattered to the other, we have been ignored, or whatever. So that voice of mattering, it needs to be acknowledged. But we don't necessarily— ideally, we do that ourselves, right? We go, this system matters, this system matters. We— how do we give that, that, that love, or that that we seek from the other? How do we give that to ourselves so we heal? And then we come into, once we're more holy, to a different dialogue with the other, or we find it's actually not necessary. Isn't that interesting? Yeah, actually we didn't need to get what we thought that we needed, or actually I don't mind losing, it's not such a big deal at the end of the day. Yeah, and that's on your construction losing, right? And I suppose, I guess then it's also something that you might find it's going better in some days than others. You might have some days where it's chaotic and you're not really aware of what's going on. I guess that might be a sign, I guess, from what you're saying, that we've been living in that subconscious autopilot kind of mindset if we've been putting out fires all day, or it's just been crazily busy or unpredictable or something similar. Yeah. And of course, it's very hard to, to really notice what is arising when we're rushing, right? Because it's not the tempo of, of the body and all of awareness, right? So because the self comes out more in front when we're rushing— it's me, it's me, it's me— and in that space with me and my task awareness takes a back seat, right? So, you know,

Professor Paul Gilbert talks about the three emotional regulation systems: 33:19

the threat, the drive, and the connected contented, right? The threat being it's all about me getting away from the danger. The drive, which is the darling of the capitalistic model— me and my task— get a lot of shit done. And in that, I don't have empathy online either. Actually, even my children can be, oh, they're in the way because I want to get the get the job done. Oh, interesting. The focus becomes the output, the thing that needs to be produced. Exactly. And me doing that. So from that, you can't mediate either, right? Right. Because you have to have some modicum of concern for the other, uh, right? And so in the last stage is connected contented. And in this one, I'm affiliate-focused. I'm focused on relationships, on the big picture, on consequences in time and space. So, you know, we need to be able to downregulate and come into that space before we have the conversations. Charlotte, that was such an incredible way of putting all of that. Thank you so much. It's been incredibly enjoyable for me talking to you already so far. I'm conscious of time, so I don't want to keep you too much longer. I'd love to know a bit more about your work and how people could get in touch with you. And then are there any particular books or resources that you would point people to as well that are interested in mindfulness and learning more? I would more say there are some beautiful teachers. So, so if somebody wants to really engage with it, there's beautiful— particularly the MBSR courses, I think they're really good, the Mindfully Based Stress Reduction programs that are run. They can come on a retreat. That's a great way to, to start the process. There's beautiful teachers, particularly I think Thich Nhat Hanh, Jack Kornfield, John Halifax. They've written beautiful books. If you're more practical, you might go in, you know, like The Idiot's Guide to Mindfulness, which will give you a good structure, a protocol. Yep. Yeah. Um, you can also seek mindfulness coaching. I do a lot of that, particularly in relation to leadership. How do I manage myself according to the beautiful principles of being a decent person that mindfulness offers, right? Uh, find a good mindfulness teacher and engage in the process. Um, yeah. Or, or do the, you know, like for instance, I have, um, particularly probably the Mindfulness at Work online program. Great program. 8 sessions, uh, very reasonable for you to start to apply this, particularly for the workplace. Right. Okay. Is that a self-paced course, Charlotte, or do you log in live or how does it work? Yep, yep. You just, you know, you just— it's a self-paced one. Okay. Yeah. So, so it's ideally people do that and then perhaps halfway through or at the end of it, they seek, you know, some one-on-one session to then start the process. But that means you don't have to spend all the time covering the basics in the coaching sessions. That makes sense. You can focus on actually the practice, as you say. Um, themindfulnessclinic.com.au, is that the best place for people to go to, to learn more about you? Yeah, yeah. Thank you very much, Charlotte. As I say, I very much enjoyed having this conversation altogether, but these topics around consciousness and perception and in the relation to conflict and all of that, I'm endlessly fascinated, and I know that a lot of people listening would be too. Thank you very much. Thank you, it was a delight. Well, another final thank you to Charlotte, and thank you very much as well, dear listener, for listening. If it has been useful, I would be very grateful if you would consider pressing like, leave a positive comment, all of those different things, and the positive messages to the algorithm that really boost little podcasts like this. So honestly, thank you very much in advance if that's something that you would consider. It does make a difference. And if you would like additional resources for dealing with conflict, you could consider subscribing to this podcast, or I also have a newsletter myself that I send out from my website simongood.com. Let me know if you found the conversation today helpful. If you've got feedback, ideas for a future episode, suggestions for a potential topic, or maybe even a case study that you would like me to discuss on the podcast, you can get in touch with me. It's podcast@simongood.com. Thank you very much. Hopefully see you again in a future episode of the Conflict Skills Podcast. Bye for now.