Four Restorative Questions to Stop Rumination After Conflict

In this episode, Simon Goode explores the topic of rumination, particularly in the context of conflict, and demonstrates his personal reflective practice to address intrusive thoughts. He walks through Terry O’Connell’s four restorative justice questions as a practical framework for understanding and moving past mistakes, using his own recent podcasting misstep as an example. The episode highlights the importance of self-reflection, understanding cognitive patterns in conflict, and applying structured techniques to reduce rumination and promote personal growth.

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 Rumination on workplace conflicts

04:38 Restorative justice program discussion

09:48 Dealing with podcast anxiety

12:46 Understanding Workplace Conflict Dynamics

14:35 Admitting to a podcast mistake

18:49 Reflecting on justifying my actions

23:31 Editing and self-doubt in podcasting

27:06 Reflecting on mental health perspectives

28:31 Reflecting on self-awareness and judgment

33:49 Reflecting on past actions

35:15 Addressing Past Mistakes

Reflective practice is one of the most effective tools for dealing with rumination—especially when it stems from conflict situations at work. In the latest episode of the Conflict Skills Podcast, I unpack my own recent experience with rumination after an honest mistake on the podcast, and demonstrate the four-question reflective technique I rely on to break the negative thought cycle.

Here are three key takeaways that might help you when you find yourself stuck in rumination:

• Structure Your Reflection: Use a simple, four-question framework (borrowed from restorative justice) to guide your self-inquiry:
  1. What happened?
  2. What were you thinking at the time?
  3. What have you been thinking about since?
  4. What needs to happen to make it right?
• Focus on Objectivity and Nuance: When you revisit the “what happened” question, keep coming back to the objective facts, resisting the urge to justify or catastrophize. This helps introduce nuance and reduce the black-and-white thinking often tied to rumination.
• Plan Concrete Actions for Resolution: Don’t just reflect—ask yourself what practical steps are needed to make it right, even if you can’t change the past. Sometimes an apology, improved process, or small act of restitution can help you restore your own peace of mind.

We all react imperfectly under stress, but having a reflective routine helps us move forward with more grace and responsibility.

If you’re interested in developing your own conflict skills or want additional resources on handling workplace challenges, check out the latest episode or get in touch!

Transcript

Simon Goode 0:02

Hello, welcome back to the Conflict Skills Podcast. I'm your host, professional mediator, Simon Goode. I set up this podcast to provide free resources and tools for dealing with conflict, so if that sounds like the kind of thing that's useful to you, please consider pressing subscribe. Well, in the episode today, I wanted to talk about rumination, one of the methods that I use for overcoming rumination and intrusive thoughts. For me, that's often connected to conflict, but there could be a number of different reasons why you experience rumination in your life. And I'm actually going to demonstrate the technique that I often like to use live, because I'm dealing with a lot of rumination today as I sit here recording the episode. I did a training workshop earlier today, and I was working with a couple of really switched-on smart guys, and we were discussing pretty complex aspects of their team dynamics and the stages that they're at in their little local team and how that fits within the bigger picture, the next steps that they're going through in their recruitment, and how they can set up the kind of productive culture that they're looking for right from the word go. So they're very intellectual ideas for me. You need to think in a quite an analytical way to look at the same different situation from different perspectives. So I like to invest 100% of my energy while I'm doing these kind of conversations. I really try my best, but I noticed this morning that in the back of my mind I kept thinking about this other conflict that I've been involved in recently. I don't know if that's something that you experience listening to me now. Like in the back of your mind, what are those kind of worries that are sitting there percolating away when I'm dealing with clients in the pre-mediation appointment? That's the one-on-one that we often have before the mediation joint session itself. They often talk about just not being able to stop thinking about the drama, not being able to stop thinking about the way that the other person has treated them, for example. And when they say that I've been thinking about it, I often say, Well, what's that like when that happens? And what they describe often is it's kind of a reliving of it, like re-going back over the conversation of who said what, the look on their face, what they were wearing, how they were sitting. And this is all a very black and white, granular way of thinking about the memory itself. Like when we look back on situations we were escalated, that we were escalated, we will inherently remember them in more of a polarizing black or white kind of way. So, if nothing else, I think part of the reason why people experience so much rumination in as a result of workplace conflict is that those initial memories kind of get encoded in a very binary, a very non-nuanced, indelicate kind of way. And we do things that we're ashamed of in that case. Like inherently, if I'm just reacting, I'm not responding as I ideally would if I had a few moments to think about it. The more escalated that we get, the less capacity we have we have to regulate our language, our volition, to control our facial expressions. And so we just blurt things out the more escalated that we get. So for people who are going through workplace mediation, having a strategy to deal with this can be incredibly helpful. So I often suggest to them to use the same four questions that Terry O'Connell uses in his restorative justice framework. So the four questions are I'm gonna write them down as I'm recording the episode now. What happened? What were you thinking at the time? What have you been thinking about since the fourth question is sorry just bear with me while I'm recording it, I'm writing down on a notepad and paper while I'm talking. The last question is what needs to happen to make it right? Now I might have um amended them slightly, but they're largely based on, as I said, Terry O'Connell. He was this ex-copper who was out from like Bathurst or somewhere in like western New South Wales, I think. I'm not exactly sure of that either, it might have been Victoria. And he talked about at a conference that I went to once, this restorative justice program that he has, and he works with people who have been victims of really violent crime, like where someone's been kidnapped and murdered, he will hold a meeting, a conference with members of the victim's family, with the perpetrator, the people who did did the thing, and with their family, and with other people who might have been affected by that action. And so he talks about these four steps as being the basis of some of the work that he does both before the meeting, like when he's meeting with them separately, as well as when they get there together. What happened? What have you been thinking about oh sorry, what happened? What were you thinking at the time? The third one is what have you been thinking about since? And the fourth one is what needs to happen to make it right. So I've been ruminating recently about a conflict that's related to the podcast, to be honest, and so I thought, well this is a sort of an inception way of dealing with the issue itself, as well as giving something else that could be useful. A few weeks ago I must have accidentally released the incorrect version of one of my podcast episodes. It was a video one looking at five ways that you can look after yourself during workplace conflict. And in the episode, I must I made a statement like, I don't think counsellors and psychologists know anything, and you know, a few other really bizarre negative comments. I am the kind of person that makes impulsive kind of comments, but I can't even remember what I was necessarily thinking when I recorded that one. Anyway, I I normally edit out those kind of things as I go through and keep in all of the stuff that I want. Then I do a final edit and listen, and then I do the upload. Shifting to video recently though has meant that I've got a different workflow. And so I suspect what happened is because this is one of the first video ones I've done that I've uploaded, like the raw footage, if you know what I mean, instead of the the full instead of the edited one with the different stuff that shouldn't be there removed. So I didn't really know about this. I worked through the editing, I got to the final one, and I thought that was what had been uploaded, and so then I often go to the live sites and just check that it sounds okay, and then I normally go about my day and go for a walk with my dog or something. So I just go about my business. I thought that there was no problem. And these days, you know, I don't get a huge audience for the podcast episodes, certainly, certainly not in the grand scheme of things. But there's enough listeners that when there's a problem, like sometimes I've released an episode and the speed's been wrong or something similar, and the epit the listeners let me know and then I correct it. So I did get a comment, it was about a week ago, from a listener who must have listened to this particular podcast episode, and they said, How can you make these comments about counsellors and psychologists? They're incorrect and harmful. Now I this is kind of a contentious topic for me, dealing with psychology and some of the claims that psychology's made and some of the ways that it's adapted in popular psychology, but I didn't really know what this person was talking about. So I suspected that what I'd said had been a bit more moderate than it was, if you know what I mean. As I say, I didn't actually remember uploading this particular version of the video with that comment included. So when I read this comment that I got back, I was like, you know, maybe they're overreacting. I I wasn't exactly sure what was going on. So I opened up the episode to listen myself to figure it out, and then I wrote back a reply to this person saying, Look, thank you very much for the feedback. I beg your pardon, which comments are you referring to? Something like that. Like I wasn't angry or like I didn't really know what to make of it, to be honest. It was more just a bit confused. I'm like, what did I say? Like, can you fill me in here kind of thing? And I'm I'm not overly attached to a lot of the things that I say. I'm the kind of person that talks to think a lot of the time. And one of the benefits to me of having the podcast is that I can almost talk through and bounce around very rough ideas, talking about topics like workplace conflict, for example, and it's helped me to then refine what I actually think. What are some of the foundations for that thinking? What are some of the world views that I've got, the values, etc., and where do they come from as well? I've been always an impulsive kind of person who blurts things out, but for the past few years I've been trying and trying and trying to get a handle on it and doing a bit of a better job at it. But I know a lot of the loved ones in my life, I've hurt their feelings more than once by blurting something out and saying something that I later regret. But at this stage, when I got this comment from the listener, I didn't regret anything. I didn't really know what comment she was referring to. So I wrote a reply saying, I beg your pardon, can you help fill me in on what's going on here? And then I realized that I'd accidentally replied on my own personal phone. So that's my like my Spotify account, if you know what I mean. I don't really care if my Spotify account becomes public, but in the moment I had like a bit of a jump in the hysteria index, if you know what I mean. Like I revved myself up a little bit. I was like, oh my goodness, what have I just done? And then I opened the episode, and then I got to the point where I made these comments about psychologists, and my heart sank. I think, oh my goodness, I've published this kind of a comment in the episode. And so I rush up to my office, and it's just this cumulative effect of stress, isn't it? The hysteria index is the way that I was thinking about it right now. Like getting the negative feedback, accidentally replying and exposing something about yourself, making yourself vulnerable, realizing that you actually have done or said something that you do regret now, and then thinking about all of the broader flow-on worries that that can bring. What does this mean for other listeners? Have I insulted people who are listening and they're counsellors or psychologists? Does this cause a concern for people who pass my podcast on to someone and they use it as a resource, but now I've kind of like poisoned the well a little bit. So it's very difficult then to rebuild trust after you've done those kind of things. I like I I was taking it seriously, but in the heat of the moment, we rush in, don't we? Like I was stressed out of my mind, to be honest, worrying about this podcast episode being live. So I went up quickly and stopped it being live. I wrote back to the person and said, Thank you very much. I really appreciate the feedback. I I think I said something like, I will either remove that episode or upload an edited version as soon as possible. Thanks again. It was something like that. Like I didn't really want to get in a back and forth with this person. Like in my mind, I was just putting my hands up saying, fair call, my bad, like it was a mistake. I it's not something I intended to do, and let me try and fix it. So that's my recent conflict. I didn't really have a back and forth with this person, but it was one of the negative comments that I've received. And I've not been able to stop thinking about it. I wanted to explain a bit of the background and the detail, first as a bit of an explanation for those of you who might have listened and heard me make that comment and wondered, what the heck has Simon been on here? What's going on here? But then I also thought that I don't want to keep ruminating about this episode. What's done is done. Like I think logically and rationally, I wish that I could just get past it, I wish that I could just move on. But it's interesting, our brain doesn't really like moving on. If there's something that we've identified previously as a threat, it's almost like our brain likes to remind us of it. If we think from an evolutionary perspective, I suppose that that makes sense. If there's a threat, it's good that we're reminded of it. These days, when we ruminate about workplace conflict, for example, we tell ourselves things like I'm being silly, I'm overreacting. Well, imagine for thousands and thousands of years living in tribes like our ancestors, and there's things like embarrassment, saying something wrong, being singled out, getting criticized. Those aren't small problems. If you rely on the people around you for your survival and in order to reproduce, then them not trusting you anymore is going to be actually a big problem. So I don't think that the way that our brain overreacts is wrong. It's just that we're walking around with an outdated hardware system to some extent. So I don't want to keep thinking about this podcast episode conflict. I did a training workshop this morning. There was some incredibly switched-on guys that we were talking about very complex dynamics within their team, how they're aiming to establish a positive culture in the coming months with a few new people that are coming on board and this kind of thing. Like I really wanted to be giving it my all, and I was doing my best to concentrate and say things that were helpful where possible. But I noticed that in the back of my mind I kept thinking about this bloody podcast episode. And I suspect that going to bed tonight, if I don't do anything about it, I'm going to keep thinking about this bloody podcast episode. So I'm going to go through those four questions from Terry O'Connell that I mentioned. When I do this myself, I usually prefer to write it down using a pen and paper, but I've done it a couple of times just using a voice memo on my phone. I've just written down those questions, so I've got them in front of me at least, and then I've just talked through and explored each one, so that's what I'm going to do now. So the first question, what happened? Well, I think I've probably just gone through that in enough detail. But if I could summarize it, it's that I made a mistake and upload a file that I didn't intend to. It was something that easily could have been insulting or negative to people who were listening, and so I can certainly imagine that there were some listeners that were upset about the fact that I said that or that I was being too blunt or over the top or whatever else it might be. I'm the kind of person that can be blunt or over the top at times, and I'm not saying that people who think of me that way are wrong. I think typically they are probably correct, and I usually try to use that feedback as ways to adjust my own behaviour. I've gotten gradually better over the years, but I do still struggle with it, especially when I'm particularly stressed. Actually, I think that's what happened is that probably on that day that I recorded that episode, something else had probably happened. Like I must have been worked up or stressed about something else that was going on. Because they're the kind of moments when I often like don't remember making a comment. It's not typical that I don't even remember saying it kind of thing. So that's what happened. I think we've probably gone through that enough. One of the ways that I often use this first question though is that I try to look at it from a multiple multiple different angles. So that what happened, I might do it from the person who listened. So what happened is they wrote this, they listened to the episode. Who knows what situation they're in? They might have been in their car with other people. Like I don't really know what their environment might have been like. They might have been in their office, they might have been listening to it at the gym, and then they wrote me a reply. I'm thinking that was probably using their phone, but I don't really know. It might have been using a computer or something else. Uh and then it was a while. Like I don't log in to Spotify every day to check whether or not I have comments. I don't get that many comments on Spotify to be honest. So when they come in, I'm it's usually I log in and check and there's none that are there. So this one was like at least a few days, if not a week, before I responded to it. So that's another part of the what happened was that elapsed time. The person might have been sitting there concerned or turbulent, they might have been considering making a complaint about me or something like that. Now I I don't think so. I think most people watch a video they disagree with, you might give it a thumbs down and then you move on. Writing a comment is a step that a lot of people don't even take, let alone doing something else. But they might have been sort of thinking about some other way that they need to act on the concerns that they've got, I suppose. Now, in terms of listeners, I've got it in front of me, so I can see that number there. I don't want to share it at the moment, but it's like it's it's much bigger than the first year of people that listen to the podcast in the first year, just listen to each episode these days, and it kind of grows exponentially. So the more episodes that you do, the more time that your podcast has been around, gradually you'll just be a good fit for some people and not a good fit for others, and your audience sort of finds you naturally. So mine has just been very, very slowly, steadily growing over the years. Not something that I've invested huge amounts of money in, and I've really used it predominantly as a way of giving out resources, to be honest. Anyway, that's all my way of saying that there were actually quite a few people who saw this, my original version of the podcast episode up. Isn't it interesting the way that I try and give you an explanation? Like I'm I'm just talking about what happened. Like I'm just wanting to describe the objective facts. But as soon as I begin to talk about it, like that little like winding aside that I just went on talking about, I really do try to help. Like what am I doing there? It's almost like I'm going into begging mode. I'm trying to plead my case, I'm trying to vindify like show that I was correct. Well, was I or not? Like, where's that impulse come from to try and prove myself and justify what I did? Why don't I rationally just pause and think I did the wrong thing there? Put my hands up and say, My bad, I shouldn't have done that. And yet I notice that in the rumination pattern, I immediately go to, it was because of this, it was because of this. There was some external reason why I did the thing that I did. So that what happened question that Terry O'Connell asks, it almost becomes an anchor because as I begin to talk about what happened, like I just did, my mind begins to think about all of these other complicating factors, all of these justifications for my behavior, all of these efforts to prove that I'm still a good person or something similar. I notice that that is a common thing that comes up for me when I've blurted something out and when I've been a bit over the top. My next thing when I make it worse is that I double down, I try and prove myself, I try and convince the other person about why I was correct or something similar. And ironically, they're often the times where the conflict gets worse, we end up having a big argument, and then I've got this kind of rumination that I just can't get rid of on my hands. So as I'm trying to talk about what happened, my mind immediately goes to what I'm feeling for my justifications, for my motivations to explain those contextual factors. When that happens, like when I'm dealing with a client or when I'm writing it down and doing it myself, I just keep trying to come back to that what happened question. What happened? What specifically happened? What happened next? What else could have happened? As I was telling you, this is what I think happened. The listener was probably listening, it was probably a week in between when they got a reply from me and that time, they might have been thinking of making a formal complaint about me. If I don't pause and reflect on this, that black and white story that I've just told about they might have been doing this, they were probably doing this, it's almost like that's all my brain has to work with. So later, as I'm trying to tell myself, stop bloody thinking about it. The challenge is that what it's thinking about is an overly simplified narrative because of that black and white way we were seeing the situation in the moment. So when we pause and keep asking ourselves, what happened? Okay, but what actually happened? Okay, but what actually happened? What else could have happened? We sort of put edges around, we put nuances on that memory. Like we remind ourselves rationally that we don't know. And just exploring a few of those other possibilities, like I was doing when I explained it. She might have been on their phone, she might have used a computer. It's introducing nuance, it's introducing multiple things that might have happened. And so as we We then remember that same situation, a lot of the time there's more differentiation that we can achieve. Like we don't take it as personally. Because there might have been many different things that could have happened. I don't know exactly what took place. So it probably doesn't make much sense for me to put a whole lot of like um confidence in that assumption. It might be wrong. The second question that Terry includes is what were you thinking at the time? It's interesting, isn't it? What were you thinking? Not what were you feeling, not what was going on, not even what was happening objectively. Like what were you thinking? So what was I thinking at the time? Well I can't really remember making the comment while I was recording it, to be honest. Uh in that episode recording though, I do remember it. I was a bit excited. I can remember like being a little bit mixed up in the notes that I had on the page because I really wanted to share this idea about the five-factor self that I was talking about that day. I've been sharing it with a few of the different clients that I work with, and I remember I just recently worked with one that was going through workplace conflict before that episode recording. So I think it going through my mind, what I was thinking was like an eagerness to share it. I wasn't aware of the fact that it was going to be a contentious recording, like I hadn't intended to talk about something that was controversial. I don't remember making the comment, and it's the kind of thing that I suspect even as soon as I press stop. I can't remember a hundred percent of everything that I say. Sometimes when I'm listening back, I'm a bit surprised almost at the way that I've articulated something, and always I'll cut out different bits of that original recording where I've just wandered off onto a different topic or when I've messed up my words or something similar. So I thought at the time that everything was okay. I actually thought that maybe this was going to be a helpful episode that would be helping people. So then the third question that Terry asks is, what have you been thinking about since? Well, since then, my thoughts have changed. I have been worrying about how this might have come across to other people who listen to the podcast, particularly people who have listened for quite a long time. I I just really m very much appreciate the audience that I've got, and I don't like to do things or say things that are going to insult people or um cause offence anyway. I try not to. I know that I am an impulsive kind of person, so one of the things I've been thinking about since is how much control do we really have over our speech? Like it is to some extent our responsibility what we say, and I'm not saying it's not my responsibility there. I didn't intend for it to come out that way though. And it's something that often comes up when I'm doing a workplace mediation, like someone's messing up their words or they express things in more of a blunt kind of way. And so as I look back on that day when I did the original recording, like how's my thinking changed since? What I've realized is that I was probably quite stressed that day when I recorded it. I must have had something else happen in the morning. I can't remember before actually recording that podcast episode. So I probably was a little bit more worked up and you know, up to three on the stress index as opposed to a two or a one or whatever I normally would be. I find that's often even in arguments when I don't remember saying something. It's probably in the heat of the moment when I'm really stressed out, when I'm really revved up. So realizing that I've accidentally uploaded the wrong episode and that it had this comment included, which I didn't intend, what I've been thinking about since is what does this mean then for me for as a professional for the podcast, etc. Like I had in place a structure that was designed to stop this kind of thing happening. I edit the episodes, I do an original cut cull of the different bits that are not good, then I do a more of an ep an edit doing the transitions and stuff, and then I usually press upload. Now I'm a bit of a chaotic and disorganized kind of person, so I know that at times I am going to make a mistake. I am going to upload the wrong file to some extent. So it's been a very good reminder for me about how I need to take these kind of things seriously, like have better processes in place. For example, it's been one of the things that I've been reflecting on myself. To be honest, that whole topic of psychology and counseling, that is something that I've also been thinking about since I realized that I made those comments. As I say, I don't make remember saying those specific things, but I do think quite a lot about psychology. Uh, it's my background, uh, my undergraduate degree was in psychology myself itself, but I've got a lot of concerns about the way that psychology is done and the way that popular psychology these days, when we talk about topics like mental health, are shared. But my thinking since that comment is so much more nuanced. Like I've developed an appreciation that there are multiple different perspectives around whether or not you should think about mental health in a medical way or in non-medicalized terminology. I didn't realize a few weeks ago that this was such a rich area of debate and discussion, and that there were so many perspectives against the DSM, against the medicalization of psychology. And so for me, it's not like I've changed my mind significantly, but I've added so much more nuance and detail to that perspective around the topic. So there's a part of me that regrets saying that thing that I said back then. I really regret the inadvertent mistake which led to releasing it instead of the edited version like I intended to. And I think it's really led to me learning, and to me, it's been really quite a useful way of thinking about like my own how I take the podcast seriously, if you know what I mean. Like what level of research I should need for a claim, what's an assertion, that then leads on to questions about, well, what is our underlying presuppositions about the scientific method, etc., all of that kind of stuff. I found that very, very helpful. So even as I'm talking now, I'm talking into the microphone, I've been recording my response to that question. What have I been thinking about at the time? Again, I can feel myself wanting to prove myself. Like I'm like trying to show myself as humble, or trying to show myself as intelligent, or trying to show myself as mature or composed or something similar. It's really interesting. Often when I write this down on the page, I notice the very same urges, the very same whims come up, like I'm squirming under the microscope of criticism. I just want to escape at all costs. So even as I've been talking now, you might have noticed, so frequently I come back to that self-justifying kind of language. So the final question that Terry O'Connell asks with the people that he deals with is what needs to happen to make it right? I can remember just being struck when he initially said that in the room. How could you ask this to people whose daughter has been kidnapped and murdered, or to whose son has been abused, or their fiance? And he uses this language, what needs to happen to make it right? And he says of course he knows that there's no way to make it right, but what it's talking about is restoring something, like some type of humanity. It might be making the world the kind of place that you want it to be, as opposed to the world that it became when these terrible things happened. Sometimes it's about making restitution, the person who's done it, the perpetrator of the violence, them uh I guess wanting to be understood, or maybe they want to say sorry and offer an apology to the people who were affected by the things that they did. And for the family members of the victims, a lot of the time this question often led to really meaningful, interesting statements like things that they thought that the person could do to sort of make it up to the world or to I mean it's not like you ever make it up in a sense, do you? Like you can't bring back the person that they've lost. But there was some sense of restoring a rightness, like restitution. So this strange language around what needs to happen to make it right, about something that can't be made right, like we can't change the past. It's a bit of an absurd proposition at its face. And yet when we pause and consider it in that framing, it's almost like it helps us to identify the ideals, like what are we actually aiming for here? What are the actually important elements in amongst all of this conflict and drama that's going on? So if I ask myself what needs to happen to make it right, I have made the episode not live anymore, so I unpublished it. I probably could go through each individual channel. I don't know if when I unpublish on my main podcast platform, if that automatically unpublishes it from wherever everywhere else. It probably should, but every now and then you run into these situations where something's not connected correctly for some reason. Um, for me, I it's the same when I blurt something out with my son or with my wife. I do take responsibility. I'm gonna be a bit more careful when I'm doing the recordings themselves, and also probably a lot more careful in terms of managing the recordings and the the editing and making sure that I've got the right version that goes live at the end of the day as well. Um Is there something else that I need to do to make it right? It's a very interesting question. Again, when I'm using a notepad and pen and writing, I often get to this point and I stop. I think obviously I should do these few things, like if I've done something that I regret with a client, I'll call them, or talk to the organization, or figure out what needs to happen there. If I've had an argument with someone, maybe I need to offer an apology or think about what I need to do differently moving forward. But writing it down, like what can I do to make it right, there's usually a few things like self-improvement or talking to the person or apologizing. Yeah, okay, you want to improve your processes. Like I do genuinely mean that in this instance, but there's a part of me that's also aware that I'm not the most organized kind of person generally speaking. But when I get to the end of it, maybe that's enough. Maybe that's it. It's possible that maybe that's enough self-reflection for now. That that's what I think when I'm writing it down. And for me, how would I describe this experience of going through those four questions here with you? I do feel a lightness, a sense of levity. I think those particular questions of what happened and just describing it objectively, noticing when all of the emotions flood back and trying to go back to the objective description again and again and again. And then we think about our thinking, our cognitions, our mental states, the mental machinations. Then we ask the question of what have we been thinking about since? What have we learned? What difference has this made in terms of what we do now already? Like what have we already adapted or what changes have we already employed? And that final question of what needs to happen to make it right? I love it. I have to say that for me now, I suspect that I'm not going to ruminate as much this afternoon. I'm more confident that I'll be able to focus on the client that I'm about to go into the session with shortly. Um, but I'm also realistic, expecting that probably there will still be some moments where I relive a bit of the arguments, where I remember that sinking feeling in my stomach when I responded using my own personal account on Spotify, and maybe thinking about the podcast audience and how they might have been negatively affected. Um I suppose I could offer you an apology as well, dear listener. I'm sorry if those comments came across as over the top and were offensive or hurtful or caused you harm in any way. I I'm sorry about that. It wasn't my intention. And, you know, hand on heart, I am going to do a better job at double checking before I do the uploading process. To be frank, one of the things that I've realized is that it can't just be me doing this. I probably need to get a few different people on board to help me, especially from the organizational perspective. But what do you think? How has that been for you, listening to me go through those different questions? Have you got a particular strategy that you find works for you for dealing with rumination and getting out of those negative spirals when you begin to be sucked down? I'd love to hear from you. If you've got feedback about the podcast, you can shoot me an email, it's podcast at simongood.com. Leave a like, leave a comment if it's been helpful, leave a comment if you've noticed some unexpectedly bizarre and insulting comments that I might have made during the episode, and subscribe for any additional resources for dealing with conflict, self-reflection, and improving our capacity for dealing with the people in our lives that we care about. Thank you so much. Bye for now.